[Implementation Feedback] White Lion - Pounce

[Sgttimmen]

My main is a WL, and i like the idea of a cd (of whatever) with an automatic snare of at least 40%, uncleansable and your lion pounce to that target too. Exciting stuff.

[Kali14]

Male WL have many graphical issues. His right leg, this how he hold axe which enter in to his body, same like hairs and like pet stand in to him this and also his shoulders. After some time playing, this everything start to be very annoying. Pounce is somerhing what can let him forget about this problems, that's why CD on pounce is bad idea. Other classes haven't so many graphical bugs.

I find this completly irrelevant. Some minor animation bugs cant be an argument for changing/not changing a gameplay wise broken ability.

You should first try play this class. This was main reason why I deleted WL 36 lvl. I know this is politic, destro want restriction order classes, order want nerf destro;) Does WL can use pounce to jump on the keep wall? Because this was some discusion about this and order say yes, destro said no. Now I have problem because I creat AM because he haven't graphical issues and slayer because wanted play tough mdps, and don't know which play. WL was good choice.

[Marsares]

I wonder if Wargrimnir really played the class because his cure to the pet's problems is "Use the Pet UI attack button to switch it's targets". That's hilarious and disheartening at the same time.

Well, to say that he hasn't played a WL is rather disrespectful as well. I am sure he has, he wouldn't just theorycraft these proposals in a dark room. However, whether he has played the WL in a really competitive group setting is another question, as he may understand the nuances of the ability but does not appear to understand the nuances and limitations of the class and its pet. The fact that option 2 is even on the table underlines this.

Most of the people who post in this thread know how to play their WL - with the exception of the usual Destro players who have no interest at heart rather than a downright nerf to the class - and know how to manually micro-manage their WL. The sole reason why Pounce is seen as cheese is because at times we are forced to spam it, purely because it's badly designed and does not serve its purpose as a gap-closer as Wargrimnir rightly says.

Option 2 is simply a no-go for me for reasons mentioned before.

Option 1 I am wiling to test, provided that it allows Pounce to serve its purpose as a gap closer. I would advocate starting off with some reasonable numbers, so the WL community can test before changes are pushed to far. This is in line with the agile development philosophy the Devs seem to advocate and there is a precedent in considered changes with the recent Morale changes that did not get pushed through after concerns from the community.

- Cooldown: 10s - as it forces the WL to commit, without it being spammable
- Snare/Speed Proc - 50%, uncleansable
- Proc Duration - 3s

If the snare/speed proc is lower than the goblin racial tactic, once again Pounce will lose its purpose as a gap closer, but it will also be a downright nerf as the WL has committed without an escape option. If the snare/speed proc duration is too short, the same argument applies.

I'm in two minds about whether it should be a speed proc or a snare proc. A snare seems the logical solution, but on the other hand a speed proc fits with the principle of a high mobility class, allows you to catch up with the enemy as well and also could act as a disengage method if you've misjudged your Pounce.

I also am keen to hear what else is in store for the WL. Just nerfing a single ability and ignoring the inherent issues that the pet has will basically imply a victory for the "nerf brigade" that for months has been making nerf-Pounce posts and sets a dangerous precedent.

[Annaise16]

15 second cd is too long. It unnecessarily reduces the WL's ability to perform an anti-kiting role. A 5 or 7.5 second would be better.

A short-cd Pounce wouldn't need a snare. The only reason for giving Pounce a snare is to make the WL more effective at catching kiters if you gave Pounce a long cd. But the WL already has a range of anti-kiting tools to use in conjunction with a short-cd Pounce. These tools are the melee snare, the pet's snare, Fetch, Charge, and Brutal Pounce.

Fetch and Brutal Pounce can be unreliable because of the pet's pathing issues. On live, the use of Speed Training fixed this problem but I don't know if it would do the same with the pet's current problems.

[normanis]

isnt better trained to hunt with tactic pack hunting increase heal debuff and increase weaponskill. trained to threaten increase +5 crit (even from front) and 120 iniateve debuff to enemy. and trained to kill give + armor ( same as squig have from his pet) and + 100 wounds to pet . remember mara have even cooler tactics and the rest .
offc about pounce i agree on cooldawn even wow warior charge have 20 sec cooldawn. byt class without healdebuff for mdps when mara have it and sw with squig have it , its not fear trade. and yes pet sometimes is on his own mind

[Kattastrof]

problems with WL:
Few useful abilities.
Even fewer useful tactics.
Pet cant use abilities if target jumps away constantly
Tank cant guard pet and unlike SH they only have 1 pet with long cd
Pet disappears while mounted.
Sure you can change pounce but this priority order makes many of us hardcore WL fanbois upset.

My sugestion is. No cd on pounce BUT you can only pounce the same target once every 5-10 seconds. (read imunity)
Pounce makes the class and while this change can be abused with pounce+macro swap target.
It does not prevent me as a manual pet control player and allows me to shine with the awsome moves WL have.

Like send pet to tank who guards choppa, fetch tank to you after you pounce and pressure backline
Then aoe detaunt and pounce back to assist bursting choppa.
This type of strategy and control is why I love this class.

Sure we have no defensiv skills and bad ap management but we have creativity, sexy burst and can escape impossible situations.
WL is pounce
Rant over!

/Kattastrof

[Theseus]

problems with WL:
Few useful abilities.
Even fewer useful tactics.
Pet cant use abilities if target jumps away constantly
Tank cant guard pet and unlike SH they only have 1 pet with long cd
Pet disappears while mounted.
Sure you can change pounce but this priority order makes many of us hardcore WL fanbois upset.

My sugestion is. No cd on pounce BUT you can only pounce the same target once every 5-10 seconds. (read imunity)
Pounce makes the class and while this change can be abused with pounce+macro swap target.
It does not prevent me as a manual pet control player and allows me to shine with the awsome moves WL have.

Like send pet to tank who guards choppa, fetch tank to you after you pounce and pressure backline
Then aoe detaunt and pounce back to assist bursting choppa.
This type of strategy and control is why I love this class.

Sure we have no defensiv skills and bad ap management but we have creativity, sexy burst and can escape impossible situations.
WL is pounce
Rant over!

/Kattastrof

The question is, would a 5 sec cooldown really twarth that strategy, or any other? Would a 10 sec cooldown do that?

[Kattastrof]

Yes, have you ever roamed with aao for example, burst a healer you know dont know what detaunt, toughness and armor is at the back of a fat zerg and pounce back to safety by chosing a new target every pounce.
Split second decissions and a rush you cant get by any other class.
The intensity and apm required to control pet, use pounce BP, send pet to target and LF the same gcd.
Then realise they just detaunted you or got a guard and have to chose a new target, pounce there and send pet before you waste the pet abilities

I am not the best WL but I know what Im talking about and I am a oldschool player who never used a ability macro or NB
If you can change WL to a sustain dps instead of a allin burster you can change pounce

[roadkillrobin]

I would even go as far as adding a 5sec AoE snare to the abillity and increase CD to 15-20 seconds. All other melee classes are subjects to getting stuck in melee range once they are there. Having pounce be an escape tool just coz it happens to not have a cooldown is not a valid argument imo. Melee classes should be in melee range and should also have to face the negative aspects of being a melee class.

[Kattastrof]

I would even go as far as adding a 5sec AoE snare to the abillity and increase CD to 15-20 seconds. All other melee classes are subjects to getting stuck in melee range once they are there. Having pounce be an escape tool just coz it happens to not have a cooldown is not a valid argument imo. Melee classes should be in melee range and should also have to face the negative aspects of being a melee class.

It is very easy to complain and demand changes but what is your solution to survivability for a WL using pounce or if you stay with guard pet survivability and what about the crazy ap costs and no regen abilities?
What about all cc on pet?
You have to make a total class remake if you change pounce to much

Edit: And what will happen when you add cd to pounce on every WL (not just 1)
They will become death magnets even vs pugs.
Everyone and their mother will swap target to the WL for the free reknown. Now you can survive because people know WL can escape and dont see a free kill.
Next issue is kd + kb = out of healer range and dead.
Again WL live because they can pounce back to healer range.