Order: Tank discussion

[GodlessCrom]

Dirty Tricks is only 5% crit now, iirc.

[Jaycub]

KotBS has the most going on, it can control the fight more than any other tank in the game. The only thing that would come close to it is if BO had a super punt.

SM is best 2nd choice, best dps output of order tanks, and it gets a pretty extreme upgrade at RR70 when it can get 2 13 point abilities. It is a 2H tank, but it can perform the role as a tank with a 2h better than any other tank in the game thanks to WoDS and 25% parry buff on top of that.

IB is just garbage, has always been and seemingly always will be. Punt isn't long enough to break guard near as good as BG/KotBS/Chosen, Damage isn't on the same plane of existence as SM, Utility and buffs the worst of all the tanks in the game.

[Penril]

Wow, just wow.

IB is the best Order tank.

[GodlessCrom]

O.o

I don't think IB is garbage but the best? Less utility than knight, less damage than SM. It's superb for solo and duo gameplay, because it is largely self sufficient in terms of buffs, but it's definitely the least of the three order tanks. All of whom are good and rather balanced IMO. But IB has the most issues out of all of them. Still very fun to play, cuz it's not easy mode like knight and it's not a lame elf like SM

[peterthepan3]

Ib and bg are among the 'hardest' classes in game.

[GodlessCrom]

Mostly it's just the discomfort from contorting your hand to reach all the keybinds :p

[Penril]

O.o

I don't think IB is garbage but the best? Less utility than knight, less damage than SM. It's superb for solo and duo gameplay, because it is largely self sufficient in terms of buffs, but it's definitely the least of the three order tanks. All of whom are good and rather balanced IMO. But IB has the most issues out of all of them. Still very fun to play, cuz it's not easy mode like knight and it's not a lame elf like SM

What utility?

AoE snare? Check (has 2)
AoE punt? He has one, KotBS doesn't (and the IB's also snares)
Superpunt? Not as good but still... check
KD? Check
Crit Buff? Check

Really, the only thing KotBS has over IB is resist aura. KotBS used to be king until the EA/DT nerf (which they deserved btw).

As for SM, read some of the things I listed, and compare it to "SM does more damage". You want damage? Have an IB guard a Slayer and buff his armor/parry/crit/etc etc etc while outgoing-heal debuffing healers, punting tanks and applying AoE snares.

More damage... ayyyyyy...

[GodlessCrom]

Okay. Aoe snare on IB has 50% uptime, and is also one of your highest damage abilities. So you have to choose between using it to do damage, or to snare on CD. Even then, it has 20 sec CD. Knight aoe snare is low CD, 100% uptime, no conflict of interest ability.

No one specs the aoe kb tactic, nor should they. It's terrible.

Ib punt is definitely worse than knight punt. Disables target for less time, and therefore gives you a smaller burst window on the guarded target. But it is still better than no punt, or non-tactic knight punt, agreed.

Crit buff costs a gcd, 15 grudge, and is a single target buff. Depending on spec, might not even be worth picking up (competes with punishing knock, grumble, etc). Encouraged Aim is 100% uptime, in an aoe, and requires no gcd.

Punishing knock is nice, I agree. Knight has the following over IB: his buffs are 100% uptime, cost no gcd, and can't be mitigated by avoidance (getting your armor buff blocked or parried is annoying, frex) and are aoe. He has a better punt, and an excellent defensive CD in Vigilance (though IB is not squishy either, and grumble rocks but Vig is better in group play imo). Ib kd is only reliable if 2h: shield IB has conditional one, whereas knight kd is on demand. Knight aoe snare is spammable, with 100% uptime.

And SM definitely does more damage. Not gonna debate that one, might as well say grass isn't green. Ib is a decent force multiplier for slayer, but Sm is a massive force multiplier for wl, and so it's a wash (not really, since wl is better and so is sm but whatever).

[shaggyboomboom]

Well if you roll an Ironbreaker, you have to take into account that you will have to play as a dwarf
And your mount will be a little attack helicopter
Think twice before doing that!

Jokes aside, i think it comes down to what you want to do. The developers have statet multiple times that they will change the aura system on the knight and the chosen once the client controll is achieved with a working patcher, because at the moment you just turn on your 3 auras and thats it. So maybe this also has to be taken into account before deciding.

If you want to play in a warband, then i can recommend a Knight with Shield and Sword. You gain access to Hold the Line, which raises the disrupt and dodge chance for those behind you.
With a shield you are able to Block AND parry incomming guard damage.
The Tactic "Dirty Tricks" also requires a shield and is very good in a warband environment, as it raises the critical hit chance for everyone in your group by 5%.
If the pressure is rising on your side, you have "Vigilance" which can be seen as detaunt, and that for a tank class!
The knight has also access to the "Focused Mending" tactic, which will boost all healing in your group (not just from the healers)

done

[Penril]

What I meant was: who cares if SM does more damage when IB has a bazillion more tools?

AF does not compete with Grumble/PK. Volgo runs a spec with all 3 of them.

Yes, EA is better than AF. I was comparing it to DT.

If you have half-decent healers, you should not need Vigilance, nor will you feel squishy on the IB.

The punt is long enough to get people off flags, bridges, ledges, etc. or simply to run towards an enemy, KD and superpunt him back to your own backline. It is incredibly useful in SCs and RvR. If you are talking about 6v6... the game is like 98% everything else, 2% 6v6. It is simply idiotic to call a class bad or garbage just because it does marginally worse than others in a 6v6.

If you constantly swap guard, you will have your KD available whenever you need it since you will be blocking guard damage.

So far, like Peter said, all I see is that IB is just way harder to play than KotBS. But it is just as good, if not better.