God noTesq wrote:@boog
- if Crimsons death dmg is a problem it can simply be adjsuted this is a trivial matter; [/u]
.
[Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree
Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree
Inglorious Basterds & BLOOD - Karak Azgal
Ads
- GodlessCrom
- Suspended
- Posts: 1297
Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree
This is literally an issue for all 2h tanks though, except maybe SM due to Wall of Darting Steel. And even for them, it's undoubtedly rougher than it is for SnB SM. Lack of block and Hold the Line means 2h tanks all get rekt by rdps, to some extent. It's part of the trade-off, and why most 2h tanks stick to small-scale or roaming, rather than warbands.Untill avodiance is not fixed for 2h ; Orvr BG will suck forever....
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!
Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
CHSN Wafulz | KBOB Wafuls | IB Waffulz | BG Waffelz | BO Waaaghfulz | SM Waffels
- GodlessCrom
- Suspended
- Posts: 1297
Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree
@boog: pretty sure all avoidance is capped at 75%. Could be wrong though. Also, the disrupt you get from WP is "soft" disrupt, meaning it gets pierced by the stacking of Int, which all sorcs/magi will have soft-capped, and so it's relatively meaningless.
Also, pretty sure Crimson Death got buffed to 10s duration on the buff, so it's 100% uptime. With BG+Mara running Deeply Impaled+lucky ini stat steal from Blorc, Destro actually has really good crit stacking potential (potentially better than Order?). That change might have been reverted though.
Also, pretty sure Crimson Death got buffed to 10s duration on the buff, so it's 100% uptime. With BG+Mara running Deeply Impaled+lucky ini stat steal from Blorc, Destro actually has really good crit stacking potential (potentially better than Order?). That change might have been reverted though.
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!
- GodlessCrom
- Suspended
- Posts: 1297
Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree
Understood.Torquemadra wrote:Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!
- th3gatekeeper
- Posts: 952
Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree
I feel as if some of us have been trying to stick to what has been asked... and its completely been skipped over. For instance, my post, along with Marsares, focused almost all our feedback on the implemented changes.. with maybe 1 or 2 added pieces...Torquemadra wrote: Its not an issue, its not a concern and it has no bearing on the topic at hand because this isnt about everything blackguard, its for feedback on currently implemented changes and this has gone way off topic and people are not to be arguing against each other nor making up random stuff for abilities to do.
Gerv laid this out pretty clearly in the OP
MINE:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
- Get Down!
- Path of Loathing (Mastery abilities moved around + tactics)
- Elite Training
With the (what seemed like) conclusions:
- Get Down! (AWESOME!)
- Path of Loathing: (Wave of Scorn should be t1 with reduced cost, NSP should be tier 2, FOF should be T3 but modified...)
- Elite Training: (still lack luster, possibly adjusting it to increase parry% Disrupt % for a few seconds.)
I write this, to ask everyone else to FOCUS ON THE CHANGES rather than trying to rework EVERYTHING. I am guilty of this too. If you want BG to be closed down and NO MORE CHANGES - keep doing what you guys are doing - fighting over the entire class and what you would like... However if you want this to actually go somewhere, try and contribute to the changes and the discussion that some of us have been trying to have...
My overall conclusion is BG is definitely improved, still not quite where it could be with a FEW minor tweaks to what has already been changed... Mainly what I see opportunity for is Path of Loathing... E.T. could use a LITTLE love as well. But! I am THANKFUL that BG even got some love in the first place! So THANK YOU TORQ AND GERV!
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard
- th3gatekeeper
- Posts: 952
Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree
So does this mean no more changes, or does this mean evaluation of the current changes and possibly minor tweaks still moving forward?Torquemadra wrote:Deeper changes past what we have are going to wait until client control, this doesnt mean I am ignoring them, just plans laid a little further down the road
I guess I am hopeful of my previous posts in this thread... BG QOL has increased - there is no doubt about that it seems... but is it "good enough"? Thats where I feel like its on the edge looking at being viable......
Do 1 last "pass" at Path of Loathing (Scorn t1, NSP tier 2, FOF @ t3 and modified/buffed)... and E.T. modified so brings more to "large scale RVR" - rather than being ANOTHER "small scale tool" that BGs have many of... At MINIMUM those seem to start creating more viability in larger scale battles which is where BG still feels lacking IMO.
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard
Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree
Spoiler:
Gerv.
Ads
- th3gatekeeper
- Posts: 952
Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree
I always hesitate posting stuff like this, because it technically doesnt involve the few areas we have talked about and Torq mentioned that any FURTHER changes will come from client control... but I did feel like pointing this out.
There was a thread ()
That talked a bit about this, and It never really hit me until I read that. Many of the BGs buffs and debuffs are all on separate abilities, which also means more GCD usage NOT spent doing all the other things all tanks must do:
(List):
And then you get into the class specifics. Mainly. Group buffing and enemy debuffing. Admittedly, I have not played BO to stay "destru focused" but I played a Knight/Chosen/SM/BG extensively so I will use my knowledge from just those tanks.
- Knight/Chosen: Obviously this is EZ mode and is not the standard... and should be nerfed.. But the reason I bring this up, is because the BUFF and DEBUFF are on the same thing - the auras. Even their abilities that debuff (Blast Wave) are AoE debuffs.
- SM (again havnt played BO): Not only are the enchants "procs" (not requiring GCDs) but a key debuff (Wrath of Hoeth) is AoE. Allowing most of the TIME spent using GCDs for SM, focused on a target with rather low "build up" time (Example: E.B. -> Q.I. -> Wrath -> Protection of H. -> Eagles Flight -> WW/ED). There are many "options" in there, just using this as 1 example in which a SM gets to "auto-budd/debuff" via enchants + AoE debuff. Max rotation isnt very long... and already includes things like: - stat buff/debuffs (built in), snare, self parry buff, aoe debuff, self bubble, etc.
- BG... This is where you have a clunkiness issue where each thing only does ONE piece. So a "hypothetical" rotation (not theory crafting but sake of illustration):
- Crippling Anger -> Feeding on Weakness, Brutal Smash -> Shield of Rage -> Enraged Beating (3 secs) -> Horrific Wound -> Pitless Strike -> Furious Howl-> Crimson Death (2h).... This rotation doesnt even include things like Crush the Weak or Crushing Anger, etc. But is ~11 seconds long versus ~ 6 seconds for an SM and maybe less for Chosen/Knight (or atleast the same).
The ISSUES I SEE:
- BGs buffs are on different abilities than debuffs (requires 2x the GCDs)
- BGs BEST debuffs require either HIGH hate cost or require hate to use....
Which in the end, while I like all the TOOLS BG has... it takes 2x the "setup" to use them all. Which is why, in the end, the design of the core of the BG fails (imo) compared to other tanks who can bring more to the party (group buffs).
I dont have a solution and I dont want to start proposing solutions. But it seems to me that this is an issue. While the BG is fun to play... this is why it will always be seen as a lower tier tank. Even if Chosen/Knights auras are nerfed and more focused... The fact remains, Chosen/Knight/SM/BO have "auto" debuff/buffs that are AOE/GROUP WIDE where as all the BGs stuff its on its own GCDS and is mostly single target.
Sorry for Wall-o-texting here.. I just was not sure where else to write this all... I hope you guys dont see this as complaining as its not. I enjoy my BG very much (especially after changes) but this seems to be an underlying issue and I wonder if its possible to merely swap around a few things to alleviate this....
Something should be looked at with regards to hate scaling and hate spending. Too many abilities require hate scaling as well as hate spending. Without things like Enraged beating (consumes 3 sec) its difficult to keep hate up (especially with CD having such a high cost). If you WERE to use:
- Pitless Strike
- Furious Howl
- Crimson Death
You would go from 100 hate -> 20 hate... Which means none of the other rotation is usable due to it all scaling off hate... (Punt/Crush the Weak/Horrific Wound/Crushing Anger).
So you have very few options to use with low hate and almost too many options to use at maximum hate.. Youll spend a few GCDs just using the non hate spending abilities, and then a few GCDs spending your hate, all of which took tremendous build up/time and then leaves you back to very few options....
So to list these out BG (non Mastery):
So it seems to me... That a few hate scaler should be made to NOT scale with hate... Since you have 11 non Mastery abilities that all compete with eachother at any given time... Which is NOT the case on any of the other tanks... Even SM, you have a small handful of Normal Balance abilities that compete
SM NON MASTERY:
However on BG... Say you just used Furious Howl (30 Hate). Well you COULD use a lack luster Hate Scaler but likely not.. since its just not as good at all..... Everything is just "competing" with each other... meanwhile the SM has less "competition" while also auto-buff/debuff as part of the rotation. I know Enraged Beating helps generate it. But it almost seems like some of the hate spenders could be reduced a bit and so could hate generators, which leads to overall similar "balance" but less of the feeling that in 2 hate spenders (CD+FH) you just wiped out all your hate and now cant really use any hate scalers or spenders...
Ill stop now.. I could easily write more... Again, sorry for the wall of text but this is a point that I think needed to be really fleshed out in order to SEE it.
There was a thread (
Spoiler:
That talked a bit about this, and It never really hit me until I read that. Many of the BGs buffs and debuffs are all on separate abilities, which also means more GCD usage NOT spent doing all the other things all tanks must do:
(List):
Spoiler:
- Knight/Chosen: Obviously this is EZ mode and is not the standard... and should be nerfed.. But the reason I bring this up, is because the BUFF and DEBUFF are on the same thing - the auras. Even their abilities that debuff (Blast Wave) are AoE debuffs.
- SM (again havnt played BO): Not only are the enchants "procs" (not requiring GCDs) but a key debuff (Wrath of Hoeth) is AoE. Allowing most of the TIME spent using GCDs for SM, focused on a target with rather low "build up" time (Example: E.B. -> Q.I. -> Wrath -> Protection of H. -> Eagles Flight -> WW/ED). There are many "options" in there, just using this as 1 example in which a SM gets to "auto-budd/debuff" via enchants + AoE debuff. Max rotation isnt very long... and already includes things like: - stat buff/debuffs (built in), snare, self parry buff, aoe debuff, self bubble, etc.
- BG... This is where you have a clunkiness issue where each thing only does ONE piece. So a "hypothetical" rotation (not theory crafting but sake of illustration):
- Crippling Anger -> Feeding on Weakness, Brutal Smash -> Shield of Rage -> Enraged Beating (3 secs) -> Horrific Wound -> Pitless Strike -> Furious Howl-> Crimson Death (2h).... This rotation doesnt even include things like Crush the Weak or Crushing Anger, etc. But is ~11 seconds long versus ~ 6 seconds for an SM and maybe less for Chosen/Knight (or atleast the same).
The ISSUES I SEE:
- BGs buffs are on different abilities than debuffs (requires 2x the GCDs)
- BGs BEST debuffs require either HIGH hate cost or require hate to use....
Which in the end, while I like all the TOOLS BG has... it takes 2x the "setup" to use them all. Which is why, in the end, the design of the core of the BG fails (imo) compared to other tanks who can bring more to the party (group buffs).
I dont have a solution and I dont want to start proposing solutions. But it seems to me that this is an issue. While the BG is fun to play... this is why it will always be seen as a lower tier tank. Even if Chosen/Knights auras are nerfed and more focused... The fact remains, Chosen/Knight/SM/BO have "auto" debuff/buffs that are AOE/GROUP WIDE where as all the BGs stuff its on its own GCDS and is mostly single target.
Sorry for Wall-o-texting here.. I just was not sure where else to write this all... I hope you guys dont see this as complaining as its not. I enjoy my BG very much (especially after changes) but this seems to be an underlying issue and I wonder if its possible to merely swap around a few things to alleviate this....
Something should be looked at with regards to hate scaling and hate spending. Too many abilities require hate scaling as well as hate spending. Without things like Enraged beating (consumes 3 sec) its difficult to keep hate up (especially with CD having such a high cost). If you WERE to use:
- Pitless Strike
- Furious Howl
- Crimson Death
You would go from 100 hate -> 20 hate... Which means none of the other rotation is usable due to it all scaling off hate... (Punt/Crush the Weak/Horrific Wound/Crushing Anger).
So you have very few options to use with low hate and almost too many options to use at maximum hate.. Youll spend a few GCDs just using the non hate spending abilities, and then a few GCDs spending your hate, all of which took tremendous build up/time and then leaves you back to very few options....
So to list these out BG (non Mastery):
Spoiler:
So it seems to me... That a few hate scaler should be made to NOT scale with hate... Since you have 11 non Mastery abilities that all compete with eachother at any given time... Which is NOT the case on any of the other tanks... Even SM, you have a small handful of Normal Balance abilities that compete
SM NON MASTERY:
Spoiler:
Ill stop now.. I could easily write more... Again, sorry for the wall of text but this is a point that I think needed to be really fleshed out in order to SEE it.
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard
Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree
Not playing BG atm but I think a common misstake is trying to use all abilities in a mega rotation. You only have gcd issues if you use a lot of worthless abilities.
Think of it in smaller sequences with a purpose teamed with stuff that makes sense. Don't spam **** most debuffs/buffs don't win and look at the tactics. If you have one that makes you crit more when you spend hate use a hate spending ability pref every 5s so you get high uptime and always before EB.
Do try out the available hate builders and hate building tactics if you have problems keeping hate up.
Think of it in smaller sequences with a purpose teamed with stuff that makes sense. Don't spam **** most debuffs/buffs don't win and look at the tactics. If you have one that makes you crit more when you spend hate use a hate spending ability pref every 5s so you get high uptime and always before EB.
Do try out the available hate builders and hate building tactics if you have problems keeping hate up.
Last edited by Bozzax on Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests