Patch Notes 08/12/2017

[Haojin]

Spoiler:

[footpatrol2]

What I mean is not everything in this game has been explored in all situations.

Hence the reference to proc meta.

Less then 10% of the community probably even cares about group composition aside from 2 random healer archtypes 2 dps archtypes types 2 tank archtypes. Less then that does any real deal testing in group compositions in multiple different environments.

I don't share the community opinion that mythic did a horrible job. Quite the opposite. I wouldn't be here if I thought they did. I think player's are just too lazy to test out everything and just asks what's powerful and will get a community driven dogma answer which is usually ancient, potentially not valid, advice.

If I don't understand something I don't think it is stupid. I just know I don't understand it and I need to explore it. That is not how the community deals with things.

Your making statements that DS is gimpo. I don't know until I've actually tested a double mara comp rotating DS while ap draining targets. It seems like it would be incredibly powerful. The cleanse argument is meh.

So we are super off-topic. The point I was trying to make is you can't organize stuff around 5 sec durations with 10 sec cooldowns. Look at all the stuff in the game that is built like this. How many are built on 5 sec durations and 10 sec cooldowns? Not many.

This is not just limited to the current DS change. Torque also did this too the big brawlin tactic.

[Theseus]

What I mean is not everything in this game has been explored in all situations.

Hence the reference to proc meta.

Less then 10% of the community probably even cares about group composition aside from 2 random healer archtypes 2 dps archtypes types 2 tank archtypes. Less then that does any real deal testing in group compositions in multiple different environments.

I don't share the community opinion that mythic did a horrible job. Quite the opposite. I wouldn't be here if I thought they did. I think player's are just too lazy to test out everything and just asks what's powerful and will get a community driven dogma answer which is usually ancient, potentially not valid, advice.

If I don't understand something I don't think it is stupid. I just know I don't understand it and I need to explore it. That is not how the community deals with things.

Your making statements that DS is gimpo. I don't know until I've actually tested a double mara comp rotating DS while ap draining targets. It seems like it would be incredibly powerful. The cleanse argument is meh.

So we are super off-topic. The point I was trying to make is you can't organize stuff around 5 sec durations with 10 sec cooldowns. Look at all the stuff in the game that is built like this. How many are built on 5 sec durations and 10 sec cooldowns? Not many.

This is not just limited to the current DS change. Torque also did this too the big brawlin tactic.

I dont really see your problem here, yeah, he halfed the debuff time, but also the cooldown. Why is it different from a 10 to 20s ration? Its still a 50% uptime.

[footpatrol2]

The problem is the actual execution of it. Try to actually get on comms with another person and actually rotate that. It sucks to do that compared to the longer durations and cooldowns. There is a big difference doing something every 20 sec's to every 10 sec's.

Especially when your trying to rotate a ton of different things all at the same time.

The issue is with the duration and cooldown. Torque also did this to big swing/big brawlin tactic which I have more experience with. It basically made it worthless from a organization point of view. You can organize around 10 sec durations and 20 sec cooldowns abilities which there are plenty of. You kinda can't organize around 5 sec durations 10 sec cooldown. It is too much maintenance.

I can make a incredibly LONG list of things in this game that are made like this. Abilities are set up like this because your suppose to rotate that with a different player to maintain the desired effect. Or don't. It is up to you if you value it or not. Haojin doesn't value DS so he doesn't see the value in rotating it. I find a lot of value in rotating abilities for a greater effect. Most player's are super casual thou and don't even care about group compositions.

[Egoish]

I can see footpatrols point, the impact of the 5 second debuff is even less as well. If you hit a healer just before the start casting group heal for example you are preventing at most 1 tick of ap regen between their group heals, even a dps class using insta abilities is only missing 2 ticks of ap at most which might just prevent a killing blow of the timing is extremely lucky.

The ability wasn't amazing before the change and it still isn't, though with a 10 second duration the impact would be higher, and it's much harder to coordinate use repeatedly over a short timescale, though why you would want to use 2 dps to lock down a single targers ap regen at any level of play evades my understanding.

[Theseus]

The problem is the actual execution of it. Try to actually get on comms with another person and actually rotate that. It sucks to do that compared to the longer durations and cooldowns. There is a big difference doing something every 20 sec's to every 10 sec's.

Especially when your trying to rotate a ton of different things all at the same time.

The issue is with the duration and cooldown. Torque also did this to big swing/big brawlin tactic which I have more experience with. It basically made it worthless from a organization point of view. You can organize around 10 sec durations and 20 sec cooldowns abilities which there are plenty of. You kinda can't organize around 5 sec durations 10 sec cooldown. It is too much maintenance.

I can make a incredibly LONG list of things in this game that are made like this. Abilities are set up like this because your suppose to rotate that with a different player to maintain the desired effect. Or don't. It is up to you if you value it or not. Haojin doesn't value DS so he doesn't see the value in rotating it. I find a lot of value in rotating abilities for a greater effect. Most player's are super casual thou and don't even care about group compositions.

Hm, ok, now I see your point.... ok you do have a point there with the maintenance argument.

[footpatrol2]

though why you would want to use 2 dps to lock down a single targers ap regen at any level of play evades my understanding.

80% of the game is still original content.

At one time destro and order had access to beefy defensive morale cycle's. You needed ways to destroy those group comps. I personally think the old defensive morale cycle's should make a comeback because it will restore why certain things are built they way they are which is to include DS. It would also make for a more interesting and dynamic game and give's player's more options on style of play.

I'll give you my assumption on why DS is in the game which is in the spoiler below since this is getting off-topic.

Spoiler:

Dwarves specifically had access to 30 sec mountain spirit (1320 armor) combined with regenerative shielding tactic from rp (1056 armor 10% reduce armor pen) + dwarf armor tactic (660 armor) + armor buff. That is 1320 + 1056 group armor bonus with 10% reduce armor pen. Depending on your gear you got a RP with 5k to 7k armor potentially higher armor value's then that in AoR with 10% reduced armor pen. You can build super beefy ap feeds in this game which specifically dwarves can do well. You can do tons of other things to also reduce damage.

I've actually done this in AoR.

Note the Mountain Spirit duration to cooldown: 30 sec duration Morale hardset cooldown always at 1 minute. If you wanted 100% upkeep on mountain spirit, your group comp would have 2 Runepriests in it. If you wanted to ensure everyone had regenerative shielding you'd want 2 RP's with that tactic slotted.

When your healer's are Crazy tanky and can't be killed via ap damage how do you take on a group comp like that? When the mitigation is SO high that your ap damage is crappy. This is not just the healer's but the entire group is crazy tanky due to what I just stated. You either morale bomb/morale snipe key specific members of that group comp to break the defensive morale cycle or you starve the healer's from any ap and slowly drown them.

That's why you rotate DS and double ap drain. It has lost it's meaning because of mythic's change. Specifically the whole savagery specline on the mara is designed in my opinion to wreck what I just stated.

Again I personally think these things should make a comeback because it would make for a more interesting game and give back meaning to abilities that player's now deem less value.

[Egoish]

That makes semse, we used to rotate dpuble dok m4 when we were 6vX in live, though with the changes to morales it's not as much of an issue now.

[Penril]

Why have 24 classes when you can just run a 3x2?

Anything that promotes running 2 of the same class is imho a pretty terrible design.

[footpatrol2]

Maybe you haven't been following my posts penril...

I'll do it again since it seems you forgot. Bozzax found the old racial group renown tactics which look like this.

Spoiler:

Chaotic Alligence;4;40;Renown tactic;Destruction;You receive an additional 5% morale gain for every Chaos in your group.
Dark Elf Lineage;4;40;Renown tactic;Destruction;You receive an additional 5% morale gain for every Dark Elf in your group.
Orcish Camaraderie;4;40;Renown tactic;Destruction;You receive an additional 5% morale gain for every Greenskin in your group.
Dwarven Camaraderie;4;40;Renown tactic;Order;You receive an additional 5% morale gain for every Dwarf in your group.
Empire Alligence;4;40;Renown tactic;Order;You receive an additional 5% morale gain for every Empire in your group.
High Elf Lineage;4;40;Renown tactic;Order;You receive an additional 5% morale gain for every High Elf in your group.

If you want to preview the whole post which I suggest look here
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21384

This suggests taking repeat classes to get maximum morale gain. Morale abilities are suppose to supersede normal game mechanic's. It is not bad design to take 2 of the same class in a group comp. It is THEE design. It is intentional and not random.

There is a theme in this game in duration and cooldown. A extremely common example represented in this game is 10 sec duration and 20 sec cooldown. The intention is to have player's use organization/coordination to get 100% upkeep on the desired effect. Hence rotating or cycling desired effects. Not a far fetched idea in a group based game.

In the above spoiler lists the racial group renown tactic's available at one time. 80% of the game is still original content. That mean's if you took a group comp of all the same race you'd gain 30% additional morale gain. Note: all morale's are hardset to a 1 minute cooldown.

Here is a short list of the morale's. I didn't list everything, just the important and powerful stuff.

Spoiler:

Sprout Carapace used to be m3 on the chosen is a 30 sec duration. This suggests you want two chosen's in your group comp if you wanted 100% upkeep of that desired effect.
Tzeentch's Shielding m4 on zealot is 20 sec's duration. This suggests you want 3 zealots if you want 100% upkeep on that desired effect.
Armored plating m2 on the engineer is 20 sec's duration. This suggests you want 3 engineer's if you want 100% upkeep on that desired effect.
Gromril Plating m3 on the ironbreaker 20 sec's used to be group effect. This suggests you want 3 ironbreakers in your group comp if you want 100% upkeep on that desired effect.
Mountain Spirit m2 on the RP used to be 30 sec's. This suggests you want 2 in your group comp if you want 100% upkeep on that desired effect.
Avatar of Sigmar m4 on warrior priest is 30 sec duration. This suggests you want 2 warrior priests if you want 100% upkeep on that desired effect.
Wind Woven Shell m2 on sorc is 20 sec's duration. This suggests you want 3 sorc's if you want 100% upkeep on that desired effect.
Thousand and One Dark Blessings m4 on the dok used to be 30 sec duration. This suggests you want two Dok's in your group comp if you wanted 100% upkeep of that desired effect.
Quit yer squabblin and Walk it off m1 and m2 on BO is 30 sec's duration. This suggests you want 2 if you want 100% upkeep on that desired effect.

There is a long list of half duration of cooldown abilities. Please note: Shatter limbs is in this category. This stuff is powerful. Some of this stuff is outgoing so it is not group dependant. This game is not purely based on just 6 man's. You can rotate/cycle game effects that are outgoing among multiple different groups if desired.

Spoiler:

Archmage
Mistress of the marsh 10 duration /20 cooldwon
Current RoR version magical infusion 30/60
Swordmaster
Whispering Wind 10/20
Shadow warrior
Hunter's Fevor 15/60 meaning 4 is needed for 100% upkeep
White lion
Pack assault 5/10 high maintence likely just stacks thou so don't matter.
Marauder
Draining swipe 10/20
Touch of Rot 10/20
Touch of instability 10/20
Chosen
Touch of Palsy 10/20
Tooth of tzeentch 5/10 likely just stacks thou so don't matter to rotate cycle.
Zealot
Winds of instanity 6/26 meaning 4 is needed for nearly 100% upkeep
Ironbreaker
Earthshatter 10/20
Watch an Learn 10/20
Slayer
Shatter Limbs 10/20
I don't do empire because Screw empire. They sat on the top forever.
Blackguard
(Old) Crimson Death 5/10 high maintenance
Wave of Scorn 10/20
Choking fury 10/20
Black Orc
Ya missed me 10/20
Git em 15/60 this suggests 4 is needed for 100% upkeep
Not in da face 10/20
Squig Herder
Bad Gas 10/20
Shaman
Sticky feetz 10/20
Current version of shug it off 30/60
Gork's Barbs 10/30
Choppa
Tired Already? 10/20
No more Helpin' 10/30
Wot Da Rush 9/30
Git to da Choppa 6/30

There are many benefits to taking the same class. For one your not screwing around with different damage types and potentially have access to repeat debuffing of that same damage type. This ensure's your landing your damage type of choice debuff's needed for your group(s) to be successful through implementing redundancy.