[Implementation Feedback] A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

[Tesq]

ppl are not keep account of the damages escalation these classes will have on cloth healers and rdp.

they should not even have 3 sec KD, thx 1.4.7 patch for that; give em melee snare would fix their only weakness in CC; these classes have access to:

inc heal debuff
out healdebuff
one + 100% avoidance x type if specced (1 for WE; 2 for WH)
ranged snare
tactic that make their meccanic gain faster
one self punt that can be used to reach the target
Stealth that allow the to run and not walk-->furthermore stealth is harder to detect than live

1 alternative skill/tactic used as gap closer (only we---> swit pursuit)

Only option 1 should be taken in account, aka fix what's it's not working as it should be, as you done for be able to turn while Knock downed.

[Dabbart]

ppl are not keep account of the damages escalation these classes will have on cloth healers and rdp.

they should not even have 3 sec KD, thx 1.4.7 patch for that; give em melee snare would fix their only weakness in CC; these classes have access to:

inc heal debuff
out healdebuff
one + 100% avoidance x type if specced (1 for WE; 2 for WH)
ranged snare
tactic that make their meccanic gain faster
one self punt that can be used to reach the target
Stealth that allow the to run and not walk-->furthermore stealth is harder to detect than live

1 alternative skill/tactic used as gap closer (only we---> swit pursuit)

Only option 1 should be taken in account, aka fix what's it's not working as it should be, as you done for be able to turn while Knock downed.

Unless there has been a change I am unaware of, WH/WE self-punt requires a Target in range(5ft), and is parry/blockable. Using our self-punt to reach a target is really hard... Yes, skill, lrn2play and whatnot. But outside of a perfect situation, self-punting past the front lines rarely works for me... Also, if you haven't seen it. Punting someone mid-jump/self-punt puts some ridiculous distance on it... I do it on my knight to WE/SH all the time..

I have no idea what your point on stealth means. I don't really see how much of that is viable to the discussion at hand, but since one of your points is a ranged snare, it would be nice if that ranged snare wasn't only usable on those not "game smart" enough to strafe... The class' are well balanced in my experience, our extreme squishyness and stealth working the best outside of guard range, not to mention Kiteability and almost entire lack of AoE...

TLDR; WH/WE are supposed to have high damage on cloth characters. It's what they are generally designed to do...

On-Topic: If SS/TD in it's current form isn't considered anywhere near crazy powerful, I ask why allowing it to have a partial snare on a hit to the Side would require a CD of any type? The cast-time provides enough of a time-buffer between shots no? As I play WH(and always remember, that I could just suck!) It requires multiple shots to catch my target, even if the first succesfully snares. The time it takes to actually close would require 1 more shot or else they are unsnared the moment I get into range and pop a flee... This becomes even more important if you only tag a Partial Snare from a side shot. You would really, really want to shoot again for the full...

I don't intend to theory-craft on this. But SS/TW isn't useable while stealthed, 65ft range, as well as the cast-time and easily viewed animation, don't lend it's self to requiring a CD imo. If "spammability" is truly viewed as an issue, then increase cast time to 1.5s.

[Teefz]

Foreword/Disclaimer: I am not appealing to a mirror here, both classes are discussed because the skill in question works exactly the same for both of them and holds the same usefulness. and creates the same issues for compositions that would want to run either of these classes. I have also used the skill on both classes having played both albeit not with the same frequency.

One of the things currently being discussed are the marauder and white lion morale roots and how they are important to the meta game of melee vs. ranged compositions. The Witch Hunter and Witch Elf ranged slows could be another way that a melee composition could slow, or try to keep up with ranged kiters. The Witch Elf and Witch Hunter are light armour classes that rely on engaging with their invisibility, however once their first engagement is done they are rather immobile when it comes to chasing in comparison to other mdps who posses the ability to charge. The Throwing Dagger and Snap Shot skills were likely intended as ranged slows that would allow a melee composition with a Witch Hunter or a Witch Elf to quickly switch to a ranged target. Furthermore the Witch Elf and the Witch Hunter don't have a melee slow like all other melee classes. However, the issue is that with their current implementation Throwing Dagger and Snap Shot are basically worthless against a good player. This is because they have a telegraphed animation and cast time, and a strafing enemy that is hit by these skills won't have a slow applied on them. This way either by using a strafe hotkey, or strafing using a mouse, a player can kite strafing at a 1% angle and not get affected by the slow. This is because an enemy showing one shoulder to the back while strafing is considered as being hit in the side rather than the back. Clearly a change to these skills won't suddenly mean Witch Hunters and Witch Elves will be amazing, but at least they would have a functional unique slow that would make them more of a consideration in the future.

There are numerous possible solutions that come to my mind, I will list them by priority of what I think is best, others can discuss, come up with different options, agree and disagree and hopefully we can come to a satisfactory conclusion.

1) Change the WE/WH slows, so that the slow applies when an enemy is hit from the back OR from the sides.
2) Change the WE/WH slows, so that a 40% slow applies from behind and a 20% slow applies when the enemy is hit from a side.
3) Change the way the game interprets where strafing targets are facing, so that a low angle strafe will still result in a an attack/spell from the back being evaluated as an attack from the back.
4) Leave the slow as it is, but give WE/WH an additional melee slow skill.

If any of these suggested changes are being considered, one would hope that common sense will remove 1 & 2 instantly due to the fact that a stealther type character should in my mind not have a spamable snare, especially not on a 65ft ability. That is just pure madness and wishful thinking. In regards to 3) Is this rather a point of WH/WE's not being smart enough to either stop chasing, LoS or call for backup? In my mind the strafekiting I guess you are referring to, is one of the additional tools rdps & healers need in this game - with one of the suggested changes in 1 or 2, melee trains would facerape even more than they already do. Why is it only 1/10 WH/WE are using the snare proc weapons? They are there for a reason. There is your snare. More to that point I think people are forgetting that we are running around in annihilator. As the game grows in terms of gear, none of these above changes should be needed in my head anyway.

If Envenomed Blade and Fervor undergo experimental changes, I believe that it should not exceed the 15% Aza mentioned. Even if the first rank only snares 5% per hit, the target will still get caught eventually. Seems to me that the higher the snare, the faster the target will get caught/die.

[Azarael]

If any of these suggested changes are being considered, one would hope that common sense will remove 1 & 2 instantly due to the fact that a stealther type character should in my mind not have a spamable snare, especially not on a 65ft ability. That is just pure madness and wishful thinking.

This is not an argument. If we're going to discuss on this level, I can retort by saying that your two mains are both classes with kite potential, and that you could easily be talking from either a selfish or a 1on1 perspective. Of course a change like this is going to hurt you, personally.

That 20% snare is still cleansable, still has 65ft range, is less than the standard snare of 40% and equal to the Covenant snare of 20% and still means you're faster than normal if either runspeed effect is active (by 5% or 10% depending on the effect). If there would still be issues with a 20% snare, modify the cooldown.

n regards to 3) Is this rather a point of WH/WE's not being smart enough to either stop chasing, LoS or call for backup? In my mind the strafekiting I guess you are referring to, is one of the additional tools rdps & healers need in this game - with one of the suggested changes in 1 or 2, melee trains would facerape even more than they already do. Why is it only 1/10 WH/WE are using the snare proc weapons? They are there for a reason. There is your snare.

This assumes that WH/WE are currently solid components of current melee trains. Melee trains not running WH/WE don't change as a result of this.

I've mentioned this a number of times on the forum, but it isn't in the rules - we won't balance through itemization. For the purpose of a balance discussion, proc weapons do not exist. I will be updating the rules.

More to that point I think people are forgetting that we are running around in annihilator. As the game grows in terms of gear, none of these above changes should be needed in my head anyway.

This will be the subject of its own balance discussion. The cost of piling on all the bonuses, procs and minmaxing from gear is severe limitation in what can be done in balancing as massive hits are being slung around everywhere. I'm not willing to deal with that.

If Envenomed Blade and Fervor undergo experimental changes, I believe that it should not exceed the 15% Aza mentioned. Even if the first rank only snares 5% per hit, the target will still get caught eventually. Seems to me that the higher the snare, the faster the target will get caught/die.

4) is ruled out, especially at a pathetic 5% per snare, because blowing GCDs in melee on something like that is something numerous WH/WE in the thread have stated is infeasible.

[Omegus]

Reading through the thread it seems a few different issues are being spoken about at once:

1) WE/WH struggle to stay on their current target once engaged due to having an unreliable snare.

2) WE/WH struggle to engage new targets due to having an unreliable snare.

And the bonus point:

3) WE/WH provide poor party/WB tools to let their allies also engage new targets due to having an unreliable snare.

Personally, if WE/WH were to be given a reliable snare I would like to see it tied to their mechanic to give them more flexibility in what and how they snare. What I had in mind was something like: each Execution/Frenzy also snares all enemies hit by X% for Y seconds. X and/or Y scale partially or wholly based on the number of Accusation/Bloodlust points spent.

Examples (numbers not picked for balance - they're just an example of how it works):

a) Duration: 5s, Speed Reduction: 8% for each point spent (range is 8-40%)
b) Duration: 5s, Speed Reduction: 15% + 5% for each point spent (range is 20-40%)
c) Duration: 1s for each point spent (range is 1-5s), Speed Reduction: 40%
d) Duration: 2.5s + 0.5s for each point spent (range is 3-5s), Speed Reduction: 40%
e) Duration: 2.5s + 0.5s for each point spent (range is 3-5s), Speed Reduction: 15% + 5% for each point spent (range is 20-40%)

Single target Executions/Frenzies snare just the one target. AoE ones like OYK and Dragon Gun snare everyone damaged (disclaimer: I'm out of the loop on the current meta regarding how popular OYK and DG are on RoR - this could make unpopular abilities popular or overpower things that are already must haves). And as Executions/Frenzies have a 30ft range the WE/WH now have access to a reliable 30ft snare, assuming they ended the engagement with at least one Accusation/Bloodlust in the bank. Hell, combined with a successful DG/OYK on something within 30ft and you could be snaring people quite far away.

Choice of spec now determines whether they get an AoE snare or not (might not be needed if there's an AM/Shammy on hand with the puddle), when to Execute/Frenzy (sacrifice damage to get a quick snare off or hold it for a better snare), spec for quick snares (the tactics that increase Accusations/Bloodlust generated).

Also, the tactic Flowing Accusations on the WH gives it a chance to get another Execution (and thus another ranged snare) off which could provide a bit of parity with the WE's Swift Pursuit tactic in terms of engaging new targets.

Anyway, just my thoughts and it could all be rubbish. Be gentle

[Koha]

Group wize, WH/WE don't need a snare. Tanks, rdps, other mdps can snare the target on an assit.
WE has ranged stun (undefendable) and a speed buff (that stays for 10 sec even after ability activation = best charge ingame).
WH has nothing... better make Dragon Gun equivalent to OYK and give a tactic like swift pursuit.
I bet Danielita wont request any snare with these tools.

For group play, WE can take advantage of the covenant of celerity too.

[Spacecraft]

I second swift pursuit. Give engage and disengage. And another reason to have our healers yell at us for los.

[Koha]

I second swift pursuit. Give engage and disengage. And another reason to have our healers yell at us for los.

risk/reward ?
If you're not playing alone, then you have tanks and another dps with you to help snare catch the prey...

[Bozzax]

lower run speed on strafe? There are several reasons WH/WE being one but not attacking efficiently while fleeing at 100% speed is another

[Koha]

The potential for WH/WE to snare while chasing an opponent was clearly intended in design, to suggest that it was intended to be so effortless to side strafe and render it worthless from a design perspective is dubious to say the least.

indeed Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot do not work 1v1