[Mara] Deadly Clutch

[Gachimuchi]

The problem is not deadly clutch I feel. In order to have a 50% heal debuff it sacrifices a tactic slot, and marauder has many good tactics avalible, so having another DPS that doesn't lose massive utility/damage provide the 50% incHD is always preferable. It does give an additional benefit with the heal leech but still. In a 2/2/2 mDPS comp anyway...

On the other hand, them having it enables 3-2-1 comps with Marauder acting mostly as a debuffer and working with the tank as something to get in the way of anything trying to close on the rDPS in said comp, to great effect. Marauder's tankiness and potent debuffs enable them to do this wheras other mDPS can't. Maybe this nerf would be justified in that now if you want the full 50% you need another mDPS(or just a SH) or if you value the armor/wounds debuff more to get a Marauder.

I'm kind of rambling now, hopefully some useful insight came out.

[spacegoat]

Actually unlike the other mdps archetypes marauder and white lions are rotation based classes their levels of dps is directly linked to how quickly their abilities cool off. So adjusting cool downs does nerf damage.

Indeed. The problem with burdening Thunderous Blow (or the other debuffs) with a lengthy cool-down is that the Marauder does not have much in the way of spammable attacks of any real magnitude. Flail is fairly weak, since it does not work with Piercing Bite (armor reduction tactic) and only benefits from points placed in the Monstrosity tree (which virtually nobody sinks points into). Impale is a little bit better, but requires shifting into Brutality and only functions well when its positional buff is taken advantage of. Most of our high-damage abilities are coupled with a debuff. Without relatively regular access to these skills, our burst potential suffers significantly.

Theoretically, you could solve the problem by shortening the length of the debuff without increasing the length of the actual cooldown. This would require that the marauder stays in extremely close proximity to his target in order to consistently re-apply debuffs. Successful defensive measures (i.e, kiting, tank intervention, etc) taken against the marauder would allow the Order player to more rapidly escape the marauder's debuffs.

With regards to Deadly Clutch, I can only echo what several other players have said in its defense: its use provides some much-needed survivability to a high-risk class, at the expense of a tactic slot. If anything is in need of revision, it is probably Thunderous Blow.

However, I hope I'm not overextending myself here if I also suggest that the marauder (and MDPS classes in general) are not in need of reigning in. Every DPS class should be considered high-threat, whether its for lethal burst (BW/Sorc) or crippling debuff application. We pay for this with our relative fragility, and MDPS pays extra through the need to get close to the target. I recall the Devs defending their recent buff of Engineers and Magi by pointing out that these classes should eventually inspire as much concern as a BW or Sorc. I wholeheartedly agree, and it seems to me that this should also apply to Mara/WL, Choppa/Slayer, etc.

[Arteker616]

i do not think a mdps nerf in order to ensure a tank desirability is a good idea , and a serious think to achive balance. judge marauder for his role as mdps and bg for what he is a tank.

BG is an offensively oriented debuff tank, one of the many reasons that BG is not viable for group play is ability redundancy with Mara, who has a similar but superior version of pretty much every debuff BG has so its not even about roles, it about viability in group play
- so is the black ork, since it share several traits with what u just type we need to nerf black ork to ensure bg is more viable in groups?. thats a core problem of the bg u calling nerf to other class to compensate for the lackings of a single class. so as i read ur logic(and sorry im esl) if i cannot be top dog , nerf em ?.necause if its the point i feel pity for your opinion . u should pherhaps work out to get bg getting improved not nerfing other class so other

aswell judging a ability for what others class has or not is not a good idea ( choppa claiming agaisnt slayer would be a hugue fuss and others i believe).

Balance fourm rules forbid making arguments based on you mirror so this is not an issue

clearly spining the wheel for your own agenda if such is the case .

All mdps have anti heal abilitys. in some cases even 2(choppa) first and foremost the marauder in order to use the ability at his fullest need to specialize and get a tactic for the use of the heal debuff at their fullest power. others mdps dont .
thats why i do not think marauder should get it nerfed or changed in any case.

No more helpin on choppa is actually a rather weak ability that i dont see people going and specing, and for good reason

Running 2H choppa espically with this ability requires no rage drop, choppa is already squishy, 2H choppa is squishier and 2H choppa, with no rage drop is even more so, additionally its not even necessary as if your party is so hell bent on wanting outgoing heal debuffs then BG's soul killer is a much much better option.

Deadly Clutch is a tactic that Mara uses to compensate for the fact that maras has a core inc hd unlike every other class that has to spec for it, using it prevents mara form using its myriad of other amazing tactics and limits its damage potential

hell ive seen maras already skip out on the heal tactic for more dmg and still kill healers with only 25% debuff
- i do have mara and choppa both lvl 40+rr. please dont lecture me, no more helping is perfectly viable now thanks to the new batch of mele healers. and choppas in premade wot rules are viable in good groups wbs (not very good choic if u do pug)mara core hd needs of the use of a tactic slot wich actualy make em lose alot of power since t blow nerf, specialy if he is sloting DP to give juice 10%critic.

in this case marauder dps has allready suffer from a serious hit due to the changes in thunderous blow .

the only thing that was weakened was maras burst spike potential which in the grand scheme of things did absolutely nothing

TB is a broken ability it gives maras high front load burst potential with 500~ dmg to a target then their hp is debuffed by 1200+ thats a lot of damage on to a target in the opening moments of an engagement and mara also has strong backload burst as well due to giouttine crits


TB is the highest wounds debuff in the game, has the highest uptime, and unlike every other wounds debuff in the game does not have any requirements


at the risk to deviate the post from the original concern wich was deadly clutch the very same about tb can be said about alot of abilitys on this game from alot of classes, going to use thata rgument could lead to a massive clusterfuck since we could spend days talking about other abilitys wich can be considered to much powerfull.

[BrockRiefenstahl]

Spoiler:

Even as "almost exclusively order" I ask myself: When does it end? Are people only happy, when we have exactly 4 classes? Per Faction and every class 1 cc, 1 debuff and 1 buff Oo? Finetuning an ability is one thing. Changing whole careers another one.

Irrelevant to this thread - Penril

[Tesq]

since no one wanna tell it i will do.

mara telegraph the target as much as a bw/sorc does, he does not have the same burst of a wl currently, all his damages are binded to crit scaling issues.

The combo of mara need to start as debuffer and then move onto burst.
So you have 5 sec to put up countermeasures.
If a BW which is pure burst is allowed to have both a KD,funnel power,heal debuff, channeling ranged snare. A slow start burst class can have a heal debuff of 50% which also require a tactic on a class which is tactic hungry.

That said what it make no sense it's the 25% of healing you are actually steal from someone, the tactic boost the debuff from 25% (wl base) to a 50% which give destru 1 mroe relevant HD debuff; but mara have less initial burst and less burst on swap target so there is alredy a trade of for that.
So pretty much the 25% heal steal is not correct, because reduces the pressure mara suffer as countermeasure from orders party, all the rest is good.

BG problem dosen't have to do with mara, the wounds debuff bg have it's the best AOE spamable wounds debuff in game, be less stronger in ST trade for have it spamable; with last change to mara W/debuff (cd is 10 sec now) the BG/chosen can W/debuff when mara is not able to and BG w/debuff is a lot better than chosen one.

[Thayli]

Spoiler:

Even as "almost exclusively order" I ask myself: When does it end? Are people only happy, when we have exactly 4 classes? Per Faction and every class 1 cc, 1 debuff and 1 buff Oo? Finetuning an ability is one thing. Changing whole careers another one.

You'll find that most people are actually against full mirrors, but simply want their class to be roughly as viable as whatever "mirror" it has, even if it has different strengths and focus points. If class A has something stronger than class B, class B needs to have something else it excels at in its place. There need to be a trade-off, otherwise there is no reason to ever play class B.

Dont reply to shitposts - Penril

[dontcomplainx]

i do not think a mdps nerf in order to ensure a tank desirability is a good idea , and a serious think to achive balance. judge marauder for his role as mdps and bg for what he is a tank.

BG is an offensively oriented debuff tank, one of the many reasons that BG is not viable for group play is ability redundancy with Mara, who has a similar but superior version of pretty much every debuff BG has so its not even about roles, it about viability in group play
- so is the black ork, since it share several traits with what u just type we need to nerf black ork to ensure bg is more viable in groups?. thats a core problem of the bg u calling nerf to other class to compensate for the lackings of a single class. so as i read ur logic(and sorry im esl) if i cannot be top dog , nerf em ?.necause if its the point i feel pity for your opinion . u should pherhaps work out to get bg getting improved not nerfing other class so other

aswell judging a ability for what others class has or not is not a good idea ( choppa claiming agaisnt slayer would be a hugue fuss and others i believe).

Balance fourm rules forbid making arguments based on you mirror so this is not an issue

clearly spining the wheel for your own agenda if such is the case .

All mdps have anti heal abilitys. in some cases even 2(choppa) first and foremost the marauder in order to use the ability at his fullest need to specialize and get a tactic for the use of the heal debuff at their fullest power. others mdps dont .
thats why i do not think marauder should get it nerfed or changed in any case.

No more helpin on choppa is actually a rather weak ability that i dont see people going and specing, and for good reason

Running 2H choppa espically with this ability requires no rage drop, choppa is already squishy, 2H choppa is squishier and 2H choppa, with no rage drop is even more so, additionally its not even necessary as if your party is so hell bent on wanting outgoing heal debuffs then BG's soul killer is a much much better option.

Deadly Clutch is a tactic that Mara uses to compensate for the fact that maras has a core inc hd unlike every other class that has to spec for it, using it prevents mara form using its myriad of other amazing tactics and limits its damage potential

hell ive seen maras already skip out on the heal tactic for more dmg and still kill healers with only 25% debuff
- i do have mara and choppa both lvl 40+rr. please dont lecture me, no more helping is perfectly viable now thanks to the new batch of mele healers. and choppas in premade wot rules are viable in good groups wbs (not very good choic if u do pug)mara core hd needs of the use of a tactic slot wich actualy make em lose alot of power since t blow nerf, specialy if he is sloting DP to give juice 10%critic.

in this case marauder dps has allready suffer from a serious hit due to the changes in thunderous blow .

the only thing that was weakened was maras burst spike potential which in the grand scheme of things did absolutely nothing

TB is a broken ability it gives maras high front load burst potential with 500~ dmg to a target then their hp is debuffed by 1200+ thats a lot of damage on to a target in the opening moments of an engagement and mara also has strong backload burst as well due to giouttine crits


TB is the highest wounds debuff in the game, has the highest uptime, and unlike every other wounds debuff in the game does not have any requirements


at the risk to deviate the post from the original concern wich was deadly clutch the very same about tb can be said about alot of abilitys on this game from alot of classes, going to use thata rgument could lead to a massive clusterfuck since we could spend days talking about other abilitys wich can be considered to much powerfull.

+ you cant block or parry TB, mara can easyly grab all the goodies in the Sav tree... and ofc they got that op tatic PB, DC is not the problem the problem is TB+CC at the sav spec

[Toldavf]

Thunderous blows can be parried so i don't know where you got that from.

[Penril]

So far some people seem to think that DC is not an issue, but other skills might be. So we are gonna change the focus of the discussion:

1) Is it an issue that Maras have a wounds/armor/heal debuff? Should they lose one of those Y/N?
2) Which one should they lose/have nerfed, and why?

[Tesq]

as above, mara is not a burst classes, is all about debuff/preparation first and hit hard then,

With 10 sec on the W/debuff my rotation and my target swap is even slower, i can't bring a double mara i need a choppa/we for more burst and 1 tank either bg/chosen that apply wounds debuff when i cant. It's not like ppl is going around with dobule mara all day.
The redundancy on mara is all linked the slower rotation mara have, if you are looking to a guilty look at crit stack on mara/ tooltips/ heal recive from DC which nullify the only trade off the 20% crit tactic have.

it's an issue that DC also heal you because it exit from that % value which most tactic give which is either 10% /25% by giving you 50% of the heal debuff which are 25% of what is recived by the enemy. Basically that tactic give you in a total of 50% benefith in something.