Toughness vs Wounds

[Mez]

If you are receiving damage the majority of time, gear set with wounds should be on. This means, soloing, duo, small scale roam. Stealther ganking etc.

If you are in a roam group who expect to take on more than your size, toughness should be worn, to handle at least 3+ players dpsing you. I.e. you get punted in, or champ challenged. Toughness gets you through crap situations in RvR or a scenario, until you can get to safety. It's just a mitigation when receiving multiple sources of damage, so your healers healing/per second can keep you up, until the situation is resolved. Unless your a tank, you will always want good toughness obviously, as you are always receiving damage.

If you choose to equip the toughness set, however, you must have enough wounds to sustain yourself through initial burst rotations. Your healers need at least 2 globals to do something. Or give your tank a global to float you guard. So you may want 30/70 wounds/toughness on your talismans or ring choices etc. It's all about finding the comfort spot. If your handy with detaunt, cc, utility abilities and flee, maybe you don't need as much wounds.

[Tklees]

On my RP I always went wounds and negative to be crit, you can only get so much toughness on low toughness classes and it just simply is more effective to go wounds. But if mitigation is a must Trivial Blows is the ultimate damage reducer

[Jaycub]

So maybe we can do some math?

Wiki says:" Five points in toughness increases your Damage Reduction by one damage per second. This is true for all the classes."

Does this mean that 5 toughness would reduce the base damage of any ability/attack you are struck with by 1? How does this work w/ crits? And of course the biggest question is it applied before or after armor/resist values?

Lets say a target has 90% physical mitigation from armor and has 50 toughness. He gets hit with an attack for 100 damage.

w/ toughness 1st

100-(100-10)0.9 = 9

w/ toughness after armor mitigation

100-(100x0.9)-10 = 0

So there is a significant increase in effectiveness if toughness is applied after armor mitigation, and the same should be true for resistance.

You should also be able to tell that toughness effectiveness is also greatly increased against attacks that wouldnt hit you for much to begin with, hence why some have said before in the thread that toughness is generally better on classes that have high mitigation values.


Another question would be how does toughness interact w/ dot damage? It seems like the perfect counter if it is applied each tick.

And of course my math could be all **** up.


But the ultimate question should be at what point does 1 point of toughness outweigh for someone 1 point of wounds? We know that 1 point of wounds is 10 health, that is a constant. 1 point of toughness is 0.2 less dps per hit. That is also a constant. But what isn't constant is how toughness interacts w/ your other forms of mitigation, and the types of situations you will find yourself in.

[katroulitsa]

LF Telen to do the calculations

[Jaycub]

LF Telen to do the calculations

Hopefully someone does, I think I got the ball rolling enough, but I'm too lazy and too stupid to finish it :^)

There wont be a perfect or singular answer, but I think if someone tried hard enough they could come up with some general rules and guidelines.

[katroulitsa]

LF Telen to do the calculations

Hopefully someone does, I think I got the ball rolling enough, but I'm too lazy and too stupid to finish it :^)

There wont be a perfect or singular answer, but I think if someone tried hard enough they could come up with some general rules and guidelines.

Haha dont u think u re going a bit OTT though? I mean just try out both and decide whats better for ur playstyle/class xD

[Jaycub]

LF Telen to do the calculations

Hopefully someone does, I think I got the ball rolling enough, but I'm too lazy and too stupid to finish it :^)

There wont be a perfect or singular answer, but I think if someone tried hard enough they could come up with some general rules and guidelines.

Haha dont u think u re going a bit OTT though? I mean just try out both and decide whats better for ur playstyle/class xD

It's easier to decide w/ hard numbers and math :^)

[Mez]

If you equip something that gives 15 toughness, you just reduced your attacker's primary stat by 15 when he attacks you. That's the easiest way to think of it.

Since 15 strength gives 3 dps to your attacker, you remove that extra 3 dps when he attacks you. DPS is not the actual damage, it's his damage per second stat before being added to the tooltip damage and multiplied by the ability's coefficient. Then that number is mitigated by resists or armor. At least, that's how I remember it.

Armor is soft capped at 75%, so 90% is way too much.

[Jaycub]

If you equip something that gives 15 toughness, you just reduced your attacker's primary stat by 15 when he attacks you. That's the easiest way to think of it.

Since 15 strength gives 3 dps to your attacker, you remove that extra 3 dps when he attacks you. DPS is not the actual damage, it's his damage per second stat before being added to the tooltip damage and multiplied by the ability's coefficient. Then that number is mitigated by resists or armor. At least, that's how I remember it.

Armor is soft capped at 75%, so 90% is way too much.

Ah yes, damage coefficients, I **** hate these so much, I'm not even going to try to do math anymore.

The 90% armor was just an example to show that it matters when toughness is applied to damage, those just so happened to be easy number for me to work with.

[Mez]

Like, 15 wounds is 150 health. That's pretty good at this tier. In a fight with no healer, 150 health is pretty damn useful. 15 toughness just debuffs damage bonus by 3. So the guy will hit you with all of his attacks with 3 less damage bonus.

But I'm pretty sure that damage bonus you reduced, doesn't touch tooltip damage from an ability. It's just the extra added on damage from str/intel/bal. (the damage bonus).

So that 3 points may even be less actual damage, like 2.5 damage per second hypothetically. Well, that 15 wounds is looking better than 15 toughness. But after 60 seconds, the 15 toughness would benefit you, because you are reducing more than the wounds initially would.

But if there's 2 guys attacking you, it would take 30 seconds to break even. If it was 3 guys, that 2.5 dps reduction is actually x3, so it'd be 7.5 dps. It would only take 20 seconds to break even.

I just winged it on that example, but it's essentially the argument. My runepriest used to run on live with something like 400 toughness, so I would reduce a sorc's intel from 1080 to 680. So I reduced his damage bonus from 216 to 136. That's 80 damage bonus, and maybe something like 50-60 real damage off an insta, or 100-120 damage off a doombolt.

It's not much, but if 3 guys are hitting me, I'm really reducing incoming damage by like 200-300 damage per second, which is essentially significant if getting trained. With armor pots and dwarf racial, the physical mitigation was huge and he was able to actually survive pain trains. So it has uses, but wounds is probably better at this version of the game.