Old Renown rank system

[roadkillrobin]

There was such a renown skill called Trivial Blows btw.
The problem is that it also lowers everyone else crit damage

I made a basic interface design for my system aswell.
Just click the skill to lvl up.

[th3gatekeeper]

So what about crit, crit reduction,
What about glasscannons thats now able to get both insane dmg and really good defence?
What about Active abillties?

What i was trying to do was stopping classes from getting both full crits and full power. while still having acess to defensive tools. If you want to spec for power you should need to sacrfice on crits and defence. Thats how all the damn mastery trees are designed to work.

Everything is relative... If I can get 2% crit, or 30 of a stat, thats a lot tougher call than CURRENTLY 2% crit or 12 stat.....

Heck, if thats not a big enough return, increase it! At some point the relative value of 2% crit, compared to stats, is diminished.

Same with everything.. Crit reduction? Well isnt that just Initiative? I can spend 5 points to reduce by 3%, or I can pick up 30 Initiative.... This is part of building your character... You might grab defensive crits 1 (5 points) but then for the next 10 points go with Initiative which would get you 54 initiative (versus currently only 38)..

Also if you make defensive stats easier to get (with my system) so people invest in things like toughness/initiative/wounds it will lessen the impact of those things - like crit.

See? Everything is relative in its impact. I frankly dont care if someone wants to go full deftard CW/RD and still grab 9% crit.... FINE!

AS LONG AS THERE ARE OTHER OPTIONS.

Again I ask, how much stats would YOU need to consider taking stats over CW? 30? 50? 100? There is a "breakpoint" where you would say "id rather have 100 Wounds over CW @ 5 min"... So what is that breakpoint?

Currently you would be RETARDED to take 38 stats (10 RR) over CW.... But what if you got 54 instead? Is that tempting?

This is what I am talking about though - rather than "restrict" and "nerf" and "force" players to do things.... "BUFF" the other areas. If you buff initiative, thats a "crit counter" in a way... Maybe youll see people spending 4 points in Initiative to get 30, versus today they get 16?.... Nobody will spend 4 points for a mere 16 stats....

The OTHER way to do this? Increase the cost of CW/RD/Crit.... Maybe crit should cost 10 points for 3% as Rank 1. 15 points for 4% for rank 2.... Rank 3 (max) can be 20 for 5%!

So now it costs 45 points to get 12% crit versus now its 30 for 9%... So thats a "small adjustmet" which then makes it much more costly to grab CW and RD...

On CW/RD. 10 points might not be enough... Bump it to 15....

So now to get rank 1 CW and rank 1 RD and Rank 3 Crit you would need 75 RR... Boom. Problem solved...

Its all about finding "fair" tradeoffs and cost though.

Right now "stats" are a HORRIBLE return on renown investment. Things like Crit/CW/RD are a GREAT return.

We dont need to "redesign" renown system... merely balance the relative power of the options within the system to make MORE OPTIONS rather than less. Thats my point.

[th3gatekeeper]

So what about crit, crit reduction,
What about glasscannons thats now able to get both insane dmg and really good defence?
What about Active abillties?

What i was trying to do was stopping classes from getting both full crits and full power. while still having acess to defensive tools. If you want to spec for power you should need to sacrfice on crits and defence. Thats how all the damn mastery trees are designed to work.

I agree that if you go full offensive you shouldn't be able to get all defensive good stuff aswell. However the old system doesn't do this at all. It will just push high rr people a lot over low rr people. While low rr guys are stuck with close to useless stats (int for somebody on int cap or something else you don't really need) high rr people get good things (crit). Just a bad idea to be honest. The current system is good get what you want just the balancing is crazy stupid. Stats are to expensive compared to crit, same with rd and cw.

+RR benefits is the only thing which is actually balanced on every class. Everyone has access to the same skills (costs on certain things as already written isn't).
Balancing should be done on how those benefits effect certain classes and not the other way around.
For example everyclass with crit dmg tactics/mechanism will overperfom the more crit they get. For me that's the biggest balancing problem this game has.

Sorry to double post but YES! THANK YOU! This is exactly what I am saying. The old system just makes the RR gap even more painful... The current system is good - just the "balancing" of the "return of investing RR" is off.... I dont like just swinging nerf bats around - people get mad "their spec" was nerfed...

Instead we can tweak relative value... Like I did with Crit above. Its more expensive, but it gives you more now at rank 3 than it did before! Thats not a "nerf" but a "tradeoff".

Same with stats - weak investment. Lets make it better to invest into stats. I really like a diminishing returns idea because it encourages diversity of stat investment, rather than a flat linear thing where it becomes "stack primary stat hur hur"... If I can get a primary stat at the same return as a secondary stat... why would I ever pick secondary? Diminishing returns creates situations where I may stack rank 1 2 or 3 of a primary stat, but now am faced with a BETTER rate of return on a secondary stat that might be more appealing! - See? it creates more OPTIONS for players to choose.

[Daknallbomb]

thats what i mean . the psooibillity to get all dmg stuff what you need include rd cw , run blah schould not be like it is now !
Atm i can go full crit + rd + cw + 3 times dodge / distrupt . thats not cool rly not cool
there should be a punishment like if you go full crit cw rd and so will cost more
and if you go rd cw crit should more expensiv
that will bring a dynamic into the system .

a bit off topic here but i like a gap between high rr and low rr .

[th3gatekeeper]

thats what i mean . the psooibillity to get all dmg stuff what you need include rd cw , run blah schould not be like it is now !
Atm i can go full crit + rd + cw + 3 times dodge / distrupt . thats not cool rly not cool
there should be a punishment like if you go full crit cw rd and so will cost more
and if you go rd cw crit should more expensiv
that will bring a dynamic into the system .

a bit off topic here but i like a gap between high rr and low rr .

I would say your not the "average" player base with 70+ RR. Most players are in the 50s or 60s so that isnt an option.

Also, why shouldnt people be able to get those things? As I said, its all relative. RD wouldnt be seen as "OMG AMAZING" if you could get like 100 stats for the same 10 point cost would it? Full Crit (I assume you mean 9%?) wouldnt be so amazing if you gave up 300 stats for 9% crit would it?

The "value" is all relative...

I do find it mildly funny that your rocking dodge/disrupt RD/CW - which all just proves the "RDPS meta" and that is my FEAR of the "Old System" because all that does is gate a player who is RR35 or 40 into ONLY being able to buy **** renown stuff because all the good stuff is gated...

So your still gonna have 30+ points on the guy, and STILL buy crit/CW/RD where all he gets is a few measly stats (that you also have).

It basically just restricts everyone to "hur hur, buy primary stats" and then you get just a handful of options after RR40... and (btw) all the stuff you currently buy - is to mitigate the RDPS meta, which would (on the "Old System) basically all RDPS just get a MASSIVE BUFF - if the average player base no longer gets access to CW/RD/Dodge/Disrupt... Think about that man... All these "OP Renown abilities" and we STILL have an RDPS meta.....

See what I mean?

If those things are all too good - decrease the return, and/or increase the cost. As I said, maybe CW/RD should cost 15 each rank instead of 10. This would prevent YOU from getting " full crit + rd + cw + 3 times dodge / distrupt" you would lose 10 points which would cost you rank 3 dodge/disrupt. So thats a direct "nerf" to your "OP setup" but also doesnt "nerf" the general population who has RR <50.....

[Daknallbomb]

thats what i mean . the psooibillity to get all dmg stuff what you need include rd cw , run blah schould not be like it is now !
Atm i can go full crit + rd + cw + 3 times dodge / distrupt . thats not cool rly not cool
there should be a punishment like if you go full crit cw rd and so will cost more
and if you go rd cw crit should more expensiv
that will bring a dynamic into the system .

a bit off topic here but i like a gap between high rr and low rr .

I would say your not the "average" player base with 70+ RR. Most players are in the 50s or 60s so that isnt an option.

Also, why shouldnt people be able to get those things? As I said, its all relative. RD wouldnt be seen as "OMG AMAZING" if you could get like 100 stats for the same 10 point cost would it? Full Crit (I assume you mean 9%?) wouldnt be so amazing if you gave up 300 stats for 9% crit would it?

The "value" is all relative...

I do find it mildly funny that your rocking dodge/disrupt RD/CW - which all just proves the "RDPS meta" and that is my FEAR of the "Old System" because all that does is gate a player who is RR35 or 40 into ONLY being able to buy **** renown stuff because all the good stuff is gated...

So your still gonna have 30+ points on the guy, and STILL buy crit/CW/RD where all he gets is a few measly stats (that you also have).

It basically just restricts everyone to "hur hur, buy primary stats" and then you get just a handful of options after RR40... and (btw) all the stuff you currently buy - is to mitigate the RDPS meta, which would (on the "Old System) basically just get a MASSIVE BUFF - if the average player base no longer gets CW/RD/Dodge/Disrupt...

See what I mean?

If those things are all too good - decrease the return, and/or increase the cost. As I said, maybe CW/RD should cost 15 each rank instead of 10. This would prevent YOU from getting " full crit + rd + cw + 3 times dodge / distrupt" you would lose 10 points which would cost you rank 3 dodge/disrupt. So thats a direct "nerf" to your "OP setup" but also doesnt "nerf" the general population who has RR <50.....

nah i mean full crit ;D like that http://waronlinebuilder.org/#renown;000 ... 3000001100
well its a small server and the time will come where all ppl will have a high renown


you forget that if not all can go for CW / RD its a rpds nerf not a meele dps nerf
me as range dps laugh now at meeles i klick CW+RD+knockback tipe /laugh and chilli run away thats not like it should be .
so many casts and skill are negated bye two simply nearly nothing cost renown spells thats not like it should be
it has nothing to do with stats for and when 20 point will give 400 int i still dont will skill lbecause iam at cap
and nearly every dps can reach his cap easy .
for me it just looks like you play meele you want to hold cw + rd + whatever what

the problem is that cw+rd + quick escape allow the kite meta not you need it against it

[Valfaros]

RDPS meta did I miss something or are you talking about orvr because close to every premade in sc's is meele heavy. However not in favor of the old one. Hated it back then and was very glad when they finally patched it was one of the few things they did right. Nobody likes to be stuck will garbage to skill.

[roadkillrobin]

Spoiler:

So what about crit, crit reduction,
What about glasscannons thats now able to get both insane dmg and really good defence?
What about Active abillties?

What i was trying to do was stopping classes from getting both full crits and full power. while still having acess to defensive tools. If you want to spec for power you should need to sacrfice on crits and defence. Thats how all the damn mastery trees are designed to work.

Everything is relative... If I can get 2% crit, or 30 of a stat, thats a lot tougher call than CURRENTLY 2% crit or 12 stat.....

Heck, if thats not a big enough return, increase it! At some point the relative value of 2% crit, compared to stats, is diminished.

Same with everything.. Crit reduction? Well isnt that just Initiative? I can spend 5 points to reduce by 3%, or I can pick up 30 Initiative.... This is part of building your character... You might grab defensive crits 1 (5 points) but then for the next 10 points go with Initiative which would get you 54 initiative (versus currently only 38)..

Also if you make defensive stats easier to get (with my system) so people invest in things like toughness/initiative/wounds it will lessen the impact of those things - like crit.

See? Everything is relative in its impact. I frankly dont care if someone wants to go full deftard CW/RD and still grab 9% crit.... FINE!

AS LONG AS THERE ARE OTHER OPTIONS.

Again I ask, how much stats would YOU need to consider taking stats over CW? 30? 50? 100? There is a "breakpoint" where you would say "id rather have 100 Wounds over CW @ 5 min"... So what is that breakpoint?

Currently you would be RETARDED to take 38 stats (10 RR) over CW.... But what if you got 54 instead? Is that tempting?

This is what I am talking about though - rather than "restrict" and "nerf" and "force" players to do things.... "BUFF" the other areas. If you buff initiative, thats a "crit counter" in a way... Maybe youll see people spending 4 points in Initiative to get 30, versus today they get 16?.... Nobody will spend 4 points for a mere 16 stats....

The OTHER way to do this? Increase the cost of CW/RD/Crit.... Maybe crit should cost 10 points for 3% as Rank 1. 15 points for 4% for rank 2.... Rank 3 (max) can be 20 for 5%!

So now it costs 45 points to get 12% crit versus now its 30 for 9%... So thats a "small adjustmet" which then makes it much more costly to grab CW and RD...

On CW/RD. 10 points might not be enough... Bump it to 15....

So now to get rank 1 CW and rank 1 RD and Rank 3 Crit you would need 75 RR... Boom. Problem solved...

Its all about finding "fair" tradeoffs and cost though.

Right now "stats" are a HORRIBLE return on renown investment. Things like Crit/CW/RD are a GREAT return.

We dont need to "redesign" renown system... merely balance the relative power of the options within the system to make MORE OPTIONS rather than less. Thats my point.

So what you're saying is that you want the same system we have now but with a better stat/point ratio?
Then nothing would change. People would still pick crit over stats and then go into RD+CW etz. The free for all system is the problem.

On paper it looks like we got costomization right now, but in reallity everyone runs almoast the same build, same talismans, same renown points and same gear. And this is not really gonna change, only thing gonna change is FOTM, so better tailor the renown system to support the Mastry tree playstyles without making em overpowered like some are atm.

A skill like RD or CW can't really be measured in points like stats or even crit as the only math behind it is the duration and cooldown. They shouldn't even exist as renown abillties. It's why I exluded em in my system. I want to se em gone.

[th3gatekeeper]

nah i mean full crit ;D like that http://waronlinebuilder.org/#renown;000 ... 3000001100
well its a small server and the time will come where all ppl will have a high renown


you forget that if not all can go for CW / RD its a rpds nerf not a meele dps nerf
me as range dps laugh now at meeles i klick CW+RD+knockback tipe /laugh and chilli run away thats not like it should be .
so many casts and skill are negated bye two simply nearly nothing cost renown spells thats not like it should be
it has nothing to do with stats for and when 20 point will give 400 int i still dont will skill lbecause iam at cap
and nearly every dps can reach his cap easy .
for me it just looks like you play meele you want to hold cw + rd + whatever what

the problem is that cw+rd + quick escape allow the kite meta not you need it against it

Ah, didnt know you were 75 RR, thought you were 73 RR. Makes sense.

IDK... I know A LOT of melee that use CW and RD + sprint + AP pot... In RVR and even SCs, I cant even catch RDPS many times as melee... My comments were also more directed to Dodge/disrupt - which are HUGE for fighting the RDPS meta. So is CW. Maybe RD is the only "Melee DPS meta" one that creates the kite meta your talking about....

I actually dont use RD because I play tanks and get Juggernaught. But I do trade off between CW and rank 4 Dodge/disrupt.

I do play Melee... I have a BW, I know how the game is played... I did exclusively RVR on my BW as well. Its not hard to infinitely kite and DOT players - in which CW is a hard counter - as well as Dodge/disrupt.

Right now, I dont think you cant argue this game isnt VERY RDPS friendly compared to all melee....

Ill let you have the last word, ad the risk of repeating myself yet again... (Sorry Gerv if your reading this!) but you keep ignoring what I am saying...

**** Rather than redesign the entire renown system we should re-BALANCE the renown system****

Your entire point is "Look at all the amazing stuff I can get" and your conclusion is "overhaul renown points!"

I look at the same data "look at all the cool stuff" and I think "hmmm... maybe we need to make OTHER stuff just as cool, and maybe we need to increase the cost of those cool things, so you cant have it all"..

See the difference? As I said, maybe RD/CW should be bumped to 15 points each. Maybe Crit should have THREE ranks (not 4) and be:
Rank 1: 3% for 10 points
Rank 2: 4% for 15 points
Rank 3: 5% for 20 points.
NO Ranks 4!

RD: 15 points each
CW: 15 points each.

Now your 75 points?
FULL crit (rank 3) costs: 45 points and gives 12% (currently you get 14% for 45 points) so this NERFS your crit stack by 2%.
RD/CW: cost 30 points.
Now you cant get Dodge/disrupt since you spent 75 points on max crit + CW/CD....

Seems that solves the problem no?

[Dabbart]

100 stats for 10rp would see ridiculously tanky toons. Ypu guys act like you can't stack wounds/toughness sometimes...

And for the love of God. If you quote a wall of text, PUT IT IN SPOILERS