Instanced PvP should be completely gear neutral.

[GrishnakBlagtoof]

RR doesn't need to be a factor. I've pushed for an itemlevel cap. Let the RR80+ players in the lowbie bracket if they downgrade their gear. Makes a reason to keep mid-tier gear, and puts that juicy RR80+ meat into situations where the lowbie gang can feast.

Having completely neutral gear is right out though, some bolstering/balancing can be done without destroying the entire item system in the process. I see that kind of suggestion as a hardline bargaining tactic to start high and negotiate down. Not a reasonable suggestion from the start.

I was about to post this....
We don't have to rework SO much, or destroy the progression system because that's what MMOs are, like it or not. But you can definitely FIX this current system. Warhammer is different from every other MMO in every single way EXCEPT this. That has to change for the health of the game and this solution posted by wargrimnir is probably the absolute best way to fix it and fix it rather quickly!

Fix the item level bracket system - ie make it exist - and we can go back to having the Scenarios connected to the World War again!

Maybe do it: RRGear Brackets for 30-39,40-49, 50-59, 60-69. So each named Tier - Annihilator Bracket, Vanquisher Bracket, Invader Bracket. Having 4 Brackets mirrors the T1-T4 design.

So yes, we can have Scenarios contribute to the world war like it used to! THAT'S SUPER EXCITING!!!
You can do that with a gear bracket system without having the issue of lower gear item levels getting absolutely stomped by higher gear item levels EVER and prevents making the scenario wins so 1 sided that all a Realm needs to do is spam Scenarios for faster, easier way to win and lock the zones.

Totally fine for everyone, fair for everyone, still makes gear progression a goal, or you could literally sit in whatever bracket you want to FOREVER because it's tied to the Gear Item Level Brackets not Renown Rank Brackets!

I really believe everyone would surely LOVE this....I mean, what are the cons for this system? Everyone gets what they want and Scenarios have meaning again other than highbies spamming lobbies to death until they quit.
The systems and areas in this game should NEVER be "oh well it ain't for you, too bad, but you have other things to do". Sorry, that's just selfish, stupid and the only reason someone would really say that is because "Muh Sov Geerz I ShOoD KeEl YoU 4eVeR - LAWL" elitist garbage. No part of the game should be locked from ANY part of the player base so you can feel special. Especially with a server and game like this. That's so counter-productive to the life of this game, it's quite sad ANYone would even suggest this. You wanna roflstomp people all day coz your gear is amazeballs because you're farming for a decade and theirs isn't coz they didn't? How about YOU leave and head back to WOW instead of YOU chasing off everyone else? You're the minority.

Right now there HAS to be something. I keep levelling fresh characters because once I get to 40, even if I keep my RR the same, hit 40lvl 40RR and you still get utterly destroyed because you have the people that have been capped with rr80+ for YEARS queueing and slaughtering fresh 40/40s. That doesn't feel good and I see people comment in matches how they simply will either stop doing it and rolling new chars or stop playing the game which is much more common their solution. And we have 600 pop Saturday Primetime NA or EU. That's bad. Very.

I sincerely think this ItemLevel Cap / renown Gear Bracket system would be amazing and fantastic. This is the kind of idea a game like Warhammer RoR DESERVES!!


WAAAGH!

[Cyrylius]

By all means, divide the pop even more. It will make SCs not pop at all basically, but maybe experience will be better.
Also, if you have issues with disco queue stacking you might as well delete it altogether, cause with this many brackets matches in lower ones will always be with the same players.
But prove me wrong, show me that is not gonna be a failed idea.

[GrishnakBlagtoof]

People will always have various characters in different states of gearing. All you'd be doing is making sure the RR80+ will fight the RR80+ and not RR40s. What's wrong with people fighting others in their same power levels? Nothing.

Doesn't have to be SO many brackets, but the idea can work.

Make it 2 brackets....RR40 to RR60, then RR61+
A 15 - 20 item level gap is much better than a 40+ item level gap, no?
Of course fine tuning the brackets, I just wanted to get the point across on what I mean...I think 2 Brackets could definitely work. It'll be much better at the very least. 40+ gear levels apart is ridiculous.

Obviously it's an issue if the community is wanting it and the Devs are considering it. Worth a shot, no? Won't know til we give 'er a go!

*EDIT* Typos and formatting *EDIT*

[wargrimnir]

By all means, divide the pop even more. It will make SCs not pop at all basically, but maybe experience will be better.
Also, if you have issues with disco queue stacking you might as well delete it altogether, cause with this many brackets matches in lower ones will always be with the same players.
But prove me wrong, show me that is not gonna be a failed idea.

That's way too many brackets. I was just talking about a single itemlevel cap for discordant scens. You just can't split a small pop that much. With itemlevel brackets people can opt in to playing the same scenarios instead of being excluded from them.

[Cyrylius]

As i said, I'm not saying is definitely gonna backfire, just that issues we already have (identical player pool results in largely repeating SCs with same people on same classes getting same results) will be even more visible. Now, if for some reason i decide to make one of the few very strong in discordant SCs duo the chances it will appear in every single scenario will be higher. And I know some people were banned for potentially this exact reason from queueing discordant SCs. Not saying that they weren't abusing the queue, I'm saying that if by pure coincidence i queue into a strong destro squad in a comparatively empty SC bracket (and I can only assume good players do just like me and queue instantly after finishing an SC) then i can see getting many more abuse accusations caused by this.
But, as i mentioned, I'm just theorycrafting and i do acknowledge that i might be (occasionally) wrong.

[GrishnakBlagtoof]

I don't see an issue though. RR80+ will still fight the same people.....other RR80+
It's keeping the RR40s and RR50s from getting demolished over and over and over by the same RR80+ that happens now.

RR40 to RR60 facing the same RR40 to RR60 over and over is just fine. At least both sides have a fighting chance.

RR61 and up facing the same RR61 and up over and over is just fine. Again, at least both sides have a fighting chance.

The way it stands now, RR40 to RR60 are facing the same RR80s over and over with ZERO fighting chance.

A 40+ item level gap is generally almost impossible to overcome. A 15 to 20 item level gap is much more forgiving, at least you stand a real chance.

And if you wanna switch it up a bit, hold onto the RR40 to RR60 gear as an RR80, put it on, and go fight lower people....and you have the same power levels. You'll have 2 brackets worth of people to fight at any given time and you'll be the same power levels no matter what! Win / Win!

The same people will face the same people no matter what......just in my specific brackets, the same people are facing the same people within their relative power levels. it's simply a more even playing field, keeping players in closer power levels facing the same players in the same closer power levels. I fail to see the problem here.

[Mordicai33]

I feel strongly the solution is incorrect. The problem is correct though, newer players tend to play a lot of scenarios nd then at T4 hit a brick wall. Same goes for the weekend warfront.

For discordant, the main problem I see is manipulation of the format. Ie. groups timeing queeing. Only way around that is bnning people like Astroice et al. Otherwise the format is fine.

For weekend sc's it is harder.

Perhaps one way could be to implement a dynamic bolster similar to AAO. When you have a lower average RR you get bonus RR and bonus stats.

Ultimately the game is heavily favouring anyone who committed the time and energy to bring a strong comp. This can never be worked around, and the people who are the most upset with getting steamed tend to be the people who play subpar classes and solo. Even 6 fresh lvl 40ies with redeye can get work done if they are organized.

So mostly I would ask for more class balance. Some sort of bonus for the weaker team and banhammer on people who manipulate discordant. Finally I would give bonus RR to underrepresented classes. If theres only 1-2 healers/tanks out of 12 - give them 20/40% bonus RR.

At least for order the main reason we lose so many scenarios is nicheclasses and specs are overrepresented. 1 wrath WP and 70% SW/Engi/WH is just instant loss, and that would always be the case with or without gear.

[GrishnakBlagtoof]

I'm unsure if you mean bonus Renown Ranks as a bolster or rewarding Renown Points. Neither of which will matter. Bonus Renown points is meaningless. What good is getting more Renown Points when you can't get any kills or wins to earn those points? And bolstering Renown Ranks is pointless because the GEAR LEVELS are the problem. Example, AAO is a nice idea, but in practice it doesn't SEEM to do a thing to deal with population imbalances and gear imbalances. But being Open World, that's the game - if your gear is lower than the groups running against you, all you can do is try and gear up and deal with getting stomped in ORvR..........but Scenarios is the last bastion of consistent, solo gearing.

Run dungeons or run scenarios if you wanna gear up, Scens are the more reliable, unless you don't care about ORvR and getting stomped if you're caught with your arse hanging out in the wind. Don't get picked off and you can do pretty good ORvR, but you still need the gear. The game is gear progression. We're talking about a better way to do that that's much less painful than the current system. It can be done better. It should be. It's WARHAMMER!!!!

The stats and specs and what you consider niche classes is subjective. Everyone has their opinion on what's overpowered, overrepresented, whatever. Example, you can have 1 Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine in the group and if they're Sov geared, they'll not only keep everyone alive, but they'll slaughter players in battle too. Is that actually true or just MY experiences? Maybe both, maybe neither. Can't look at it like that. You have to look at this whole thing from as neutral position as possible in order to fix it. No room for what we feel is OP etc etc....in the end, if you're similarly powered in your gear, OP class or not, you stand a chance because the game is balanced around the top tier gear more than RR40 - RR70 Gear Levels. Noting wrong with that, it has to be because that's where everyone will eventually be at sooner or later.......it just makes getting to that point a horrible mess of a grindfest that you need the patience of a Saint to gear up in.

The problem is, as you said and as we all say, that brick wall when you hit Rank 40 RR40. Scenarios are the best hope to gear up in and can be as close to fair as possible. Having 2 Brackets that cap the gear item level tier will give everyone the fights they want, the most fair and even way to fight.

I'll gladly Die on this Hill because out of everything talked about and brought up, this is the best option and at least 1 Dev has come out saying item level caps are a good idea to consider. It'll allow people to gear without a steamroll. Whether it's Order or Destruction, it's bipartisan, nobody likes joining a scenario in their Annihilator gear and get eaten alive all night by groups of Sovereign geared players. And the Annihilator guys can be a premade, in Discord and have played together for a decade and they will get absolutely crushed every match all day and night by a PUG full of Sovereign Geared players. That's not subjective, that's an outright fact. 40 Gear Level difference is monstrous and almost impossible to overcome. I say "almost" because there's always 1 outside fluke, but I haven't seen it.

I love this game. I freakin' ADORE this game and I'm extremely grateful to the Developers and GMs and everyone in-between that make this game possible and all I want is to see it grow and thrive, and right now, the way the systems work at cap, I've personally seen dozens of people join, love it, hit 40......and quit after getting a taste of Career Rank 40 Scenarios. And man, we need to have Scenarios matter again in the War. Hell, I'm on my way to capping however many characters I can have on my account before resigning myself to the fact that I have to eventually grind up my Renown Ranks for Gear because getting dungeon runs is just as bad.

All I ask is that we take a look at the way it works now and try to fix it in the best ways possible. Right now, the best idea we've seen was posted by Wargrimnir - item level capping. Make it 2 Tiers and we're in business! I'll happily test that system out for as long as we need to refine it and make it work! Just let me know when and where. I'm sure many people here would too!

WAAAGH!!!

[Duukar]

RR doesn't need to be a factor. I've pushed for an itemlevel cap. Let the RR80+ players in the lowbie bracket if they downgrade their gear. Makes a reason to keep mid-tier gear, and puts that juicy RR80+ meat into situations where the lowbie gang can feast.

Having completely neutral gear is right out though, some bolstering/balancing can be done without destroying the entire item system in the process. I see that kind of suggestion as a hardline bargaining tactic to start high and negotiate down. Not a reasonable suggestion from the start.

Im glad to hear you guys are mulling over some type of change to SCs to make them more accessible to new players. What you suggest sounds good. Keep the customization for sure.

This suggestion wasnt a hardline negotiation tactic. I care about the game and just watched a bunch of friends from another game come, lvl, and then mostly leave. Although some seem to be coming back after getting burned pretty hard in T4 initially.

In experiencing this, some issues have become pretty evident from the new player experience.

City? out of the question.
SCs? Can be really discouraging especially if one side is running BiS premades.
Weekend event SCs? Stay away!
Ranked play? Nope.

Some sort of lvling of the playing field would do wonder to recruitment and retention of new players AND could create some really close fun fights. I dunno, twas just an idea.

[Fallenkezef]

I've been away from this game for over 3 years. Coming in with fresh eyes after playing allot of different mmos, all made from a commercial stabdpoint. This game is very different, player driven with literaly no "pay to win" mechanic.

So we have the age old newbie vs established players debate. Since I'm basicly restarting and coming in with a fresh toon, this is definitely relevant to me. Especialy since scenarios where my favourite part of this game. Therefore this debate has caught my eye and, honestly, as scenarios and gearing where a factor in my previous departure it's something i care about. Let's look at the conflicting viewpoints.

1) Established player: He (not to discriminate against female players but it's simpler to use the male pronoun) has done the grind, put in the effort, worked bloody hard for the bis gear and renown rank. Why on earth should he be punished for having good gear? Why on earth should his well earned progression be negated to let some new guy who hasn't put in the effort have some unfair and unearned crutch?

2) new player: He is trying to grind, trying to earn the currencies and renown rank to get to the top but has no chance due to the bis, toting players using him as nothing more than a roadblock. Scenario after scenario where he is just a target, fodder, losing to the bis premades. Hell the more experienced pugs don't see the new guy as a threat. It's frustrating, negates any real fun or enjoyment and makes the new guy reconsider playing.

How do we please both sides of the argument? RoR manages to avoid the toxic effects of "pay to win" which is the basic method the new guy uses to progress in commercial mmos (looking at you Cryptic, looking at you.). By making a scenario gear neutral you are punishing the established player for the crime of playing the game. You are making his hard earned efforts worthless just to please the noobs who can't compete and havn't put the time in.

Right now you have tier gaps, some bolstering within those gaps and then the T4 free for all. Having a gear cap in scenarios could be interesting, however be careful what you wish for. This game does not have a massive playerbase and you have to SERIOUSLY consider any idea that could limit or split that player base. In the quest for a better deal in regards to the new guy could lead to long que times and abuse from premades.

As players we like to make allot of demands and suggestions that may or may not be feasible from a programming perspective and it seems the gear neutral idea is off the table. Wargrimnir has made an interesting point regarding gear caps. How far can we develop this idea without limiting the playerbase and creating a T4 where nobody is happy?

I think, admitting my bias as a returning player starting from the bottom, that the new players should be cultivated and helped to advance. this is already in place in many ways, the unified currency is an amazingly good and useful idea for example. However no game is fun or worth playing without a sense of achievemnet and triumpth. There is a reason players don't start at level 40, rr 80 and have full bis straight after character gen.

Is there a way to take some scenarios out of the random que, no more than 2 or 3 for variety. Some of the more basic, less competitively sought after? Could these then be created with an item cap to balance for the up and coming T4 players to help bridge the gap between gaering up and having fun for the newer player and prevent them being instantly squashed by the established player who doesn't want to be penalised for progression?