Destro vs Order

[Razid1987]

@Jaycub ORVR guilds on RoR
Phalanx, Nazgul, Porn Factory, Beavers, Invasion, Gentleman at Arms, Radiant Knigts, FUHRER, Who's Savy Now i probobly forgot a whole bunch.

King's Own (Rip) and INQUISITORS (Rip?)

[Jaycub]

I'm talking about guilds that can on a regular basis get together a complete meta warband. Not a guild that fill spots with pugs and just plays with whatever classes it has on at that particular time.

[roadkillrobin]

The Morale pump on AM is tied to a single target heal, on top of AM being a **** healer. Hardly comparable to a tactic you just slot and literally do not have to change your playstyle at all since it's based off blocking.

Also tank morales are way OP compared to other archetypes, AM can't afford to sit there and pump single target heals into a tank.

Give AM a similar mechanism of morale pump compared to shaman and you might see it played in 6 mans.

No thats exaclty what I said, having acess to m4 on the tanks isn't worth breking the stabillity of the meta groups. Thats means Immaculate Defence isn't worth the sacrifice of of that static advantage and stabillity. There's also many advantages to the AM Morale pump over Shamans since it can be used while hiding out of LoS. But Shamans arn't being used in 6man meta groups either and wasn't in t3 when m4 werent around. Order not willing to break their static advantage and healing stabillity for Immaculate Defence says it all.

[roadkillrobin]

I'm talking about guilds that can on a regular basis get together a complete meta warband. Not a guild that fill spots with pugs and just plays with whatever classes it has on at that particular time.

Please, scenario premades uses fillers all the time to. It doesn't really mather anyway coz you need to look at the maximal effects of things coz it's a possibillity not the hypotetical people don't opttimize anyway. Thats a horrible way to look at ballance.

[Reesh]

I see this posted everywhere,

"Destro's main advantage is morale gain, while order has better static gameplay"

I'm interested mostly in the latter part about order having better static stuff, which I assume is mostly connected to the kotbs? Anyone care to go into depth here about what order is overperforming on and what destro lacks to compensate for that? Obviously barring anything having to do with morales.

Spoiler:

Order

Pump

BW - Embrace the Flames - self 200 on crit, 3s retrigger = ~66/s
AM - Bolstering Boon - any 250/2s = 125/s

Drain

SM - Intimidating Blow - 100/5s = -20/s
WH - Vitriolic Judgement - 225 @ 25% direct damage to back of target

Destruction

Pump

CH - Destined for Victory - self 200 on block, 3s retrigger = 66/s
BO - You'z see me blok dat? - self 200 on block, 3s retrigger = 66/s
ZE - By Tzeentch's Will! - self 200 on critical heal, 3s retrigger = 66/s
SO - Glorious Carnage - self 200 on crit, 3s retrigger = 66s/s
SH - Get Movin'! - group 150/10s on direct damage = 15/s (150/5s with second tactic = 30/s)
SQ - Strength in Numbas - self 100/3s on 25% groupmate direct damage = 33/s?

Drain

BO - Lookin' For Opp'tunity - 216/1.15s = -187/s
SH - Hurts, Don't It? - 150/2s = -75/s
MA - Crushing Blows - 225 / 25% direct damage while in Monstrosity

Spoiler:

You can "understand" and "see" from Azarael's post how destro designed around fast morale gain - drain. Just check the numbers of morale pump from destro and order.

Let me show an example to you:

When the things come warband vs warband [ Which is main aspect of the game in my book at least 12 vs 12 ],

What is the main pressure of order warband ?

-M2 from BW [ 9,5 second with morale tactic ]

-Shatter Limbs from Slayer [ 20 second cooldown ] + Inevitable Doom [ Spamable with Whispering Winds ] + Rampage [ Every 5 seconds with Whispering Winds with Furious Mode ]

-No Escape [M3] from Knight with 1 AM morale pump [ 13,5 second ] + Crit buff [Defensive Support]

-Whispering Winds from SM [ 20 second cooldown, 5 sec decrease cooldowns] + [Defensive Support]

What is the counter from destruction:

You need:

-Marauders [Morale Drain] to counter M2 from BW. [ And trust me, you can't use many marauders in warband cause of dps output ] + M2 [ 24 seconds unbuffed, with Get Movin' + Ere we Goes Again from Shaman, using 2 tactics, 18 seconds ] [ Offensive Support ]

-Chop Fasta from Choppa [Countering Shatter Limbs only for 2 mins - if you fight agaist more than 2 slayers you're pretty ****.] [ Offensive Support ]

-DoK M2 [1 minute cooldown, 24 seconds to reach] [ Countering Shatter Limbs ] + AoE cleanse [ Already nerfed ]

-Bad Gas from SH [ 20 second cooldown, Countering dps pressure, actually not worth it agaist Whispering Winds, same cooldown ] [And trust me again, you can use 4 slayers in warband but you can't use 4 SH in warband cause of dps output ] and actually the only way to make your squig dps ok is M2 [ Unshakeable Focus, requires Morale boost tactic to use it effectively, 16 seconds with morale tactic ]

-Crimson Death from BG [ Crit Buff, Countering dps output, needs 2 hander= Squishy buff ] [ Offensive Support ]

-Cripling Strikes from Chosen [ Damage reducer, Countering crit buff, You need to stack with Crit, you dont have to use 2 hander for it but you have to use Oppressing Blows [Crit Buff, requires 2hander] + the abilities spammable abilities requires 2hander ] [ Offensive Support ]

-Blast Wave of Chosen [ Countering crit buff, AoE wounds debuff, 20 feet, 15 second cooldown]

-M2 of Sorc, Focused Mind [ Countering crit buff, requires morale tactic, 24 seconds unbuffed, 9,5 seconds with morale tactic ]

-M2 of Zealot, Focused Mind [ Countering crit buff's dps output, 11 second with morale tactic ]

Abstract for everyone:

Order classes are more stabilized with their mainstream classes, BW [ Morale + Dps ] - Knight [ Defensive + Support ] - SM [ Defensive + Support ] - Slayer [Utility + Dps ].

Order warbands can play like this:
4X [ 1 Knight + 1 SM + 1 BW + 1 Slayer + 2 WP ] [ of course it's just an example and need more utility like dps runepriest, engineer and morale pumper AM ]

If the things come for destro, you have to use a melee SH [ Utility + lack of dps] - Maraduer [ Utility + Lack of dps ] - Choppa [ lol Utility because of cooldown + Dps ] and Offensive tanks [2 hander BG + Chosen] so the only way to close the gap is: Destro morale tactics.

Crit aside, is there another aoe initiative debuff on destro? Mistress of the Marsh debuffs initiative while Sticky Feetz debuffs Elemental resistance which is an undesirable effect. I see synergy with Magus rift which could prove useful. In any case not balanced, but I don't know how potent it is really.

Black Horror from Sorc - 80 init debuff
http://www.waronlinebuilder.org/#career ... :;;0:0:0:0:

Black Orc's Da Biggest Beilow with aoe abilities. [ random stat steal but it works]

Marauder Wave of Mutilation
http://www.waronlinebuilder.org/#career ... :;;0:0:0:0:

Witch Elves "Kiss of Agony" proc with OyK
http://www.waronlinebuilder.org/#career ... ;;;0:0:0:0:

premade warbands lmao

Let me clear something up for you, this game is balanced around the 6 man level. Not the WB level where you can do pretty much anything and you just dump damage morales when the WB leader says so and aside from that you just do whatever you want.

Delete the game.

Let me debunk this little whine post of yours, that destro is so sad with it's tools and order so op.

M2 of BW combined with morale tactic. Against a coordinated warband it doesn't put enough pressure anymore. Stand together in a blob, and it's like nothing, as the AoE effect will spread out evenly. Order would need at least 6 BWs with coordinated morale drop to make it work against force of warband or more, and such numbers of BWs in one warband is completly and uterrly useless. Also, running morale tactic as a BW in a bomb wb is really bad.

Slayers spammable ID with whispering winds. Argument that it's powerfull in warband play is laughable. ID requires a target, that would mean that a slayer has to be INSIDE des wb. Also, it cannot have more then one application per player, so basically it's getting cleansed by doks without doing much. When it comes to consistent dps from slayer it's still a flurry spam, which is mirrored by choppas lotsa choppin.
Rampage every 5secs. Again, it requires whispering winds up, and again, totally useless. Dropping rage back to 0 just to get rampage effect during a wb fight is idiotic move, gimping your dmg when you need it to actually kill something. You drop rage when getting pressured, so basically when wb fight is most likely lost.

And the bad gas squig case, since couple of strong arguments mentioned shatter limbs. It's dps isn't bad when itemized properly and good itemization is a must. Also proper renown point speccing. If an SH goes out into wb by just respeccing then well, it's damage is going to be bad. And bad gas squigs are REQUIRED, so I'm literally laughing when I don't see them in organized warbands. Run two of them at least and you'll see the difference.
Positioning of using bad gas is key, one tool helps with it - using sticky squigz to knock yourself onto the healer line through any tank, mdps blob. Slayer doesn't have access to such trick and is inflicted upon body blocking.

That will be all for now.

[roadkillrobin]

Wall of text

Except they changed so AoE now hits closet targets within it's range instead of random target whitin it's range. Have you even played in a organized Warband since t3???

[Reesh]

Wall of text

Except they changed so AoE now hits closet targets within it's range instead of random target whitin it's range. Have you even played in a organized Warband since t3???

I did and wonder what? It's effect hits tanks.

[roadkillrobin]

Thats means you can chose the location you want to drop the morale and actually bomb the players in that location instead of it being random targets within the asuming your warband is tight ofc.

Azarael wrote:
Fine. In the next patch, the target selector will hit the closest targets.

This Qoute is from this summer.

[bloodi]

] so the only way to close the gap is: Destro morale tactics..

And partisan walls of text with color tags. At least you are not trying to compare damage outputs again by having a warband of destruction that somehow has 10 people using morales while the order has 13 and then saying "See? order does more damage!"

Worst is people labeled it as a fantastic post, thats the quality of debate around here, a guy lying through his teeth is praised.

[wargrimnir]

hey oh

crit was also just nerfed across the board, which is an order buff. so the devs don't like crit stacking but they wont look at these tactics. that are only available on ONE SIDE.

this is not whining or any of that do not take any of this personally, i will still be bodying order into infinity until the server goes down again. but if you play both sides and learn both sides. you will see it all

Please make a post in the Balance forums. It's not that we don't understand, it's that a wide sweeping change to one faction would need to be rather well justified. Writing/responding to proposals is painful to say the least. But if you're willing to fight for it, defend your points, and deal with an angry mob of Order players, than by all means go for it.

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