WE/WH Idea

[Danielle]

There's a tactic that makes your bullet proc 5% more likely to be critically hit by everyone in your group.

That being said I think WE and WH are some of the best balanced classes in the game for smallscale. The problem is marauder's are way overpowered, which is why we see no WEs or Choppas. Also the WE and WH AoE tree needs a rework for both of the classes. I don't mind if it's the weakest AoE tree out there from all the mdps (as some would argue it's meant to be, I consider such arguments bs btw - I wouldn't say Choppa is meant to be the weakest ST class anywhere, because he swings his axes too wildly or WHATEVER), but at least it should be better in large scale than using single target abilities which it isn't.

Imo in a world of pure balance where conservatism, tradition and lore aren't taken into account WH/WE should in fact have the highest damage dealing AoE tree or best AoE damage bursting tree (compared to other DPS), because they have the worst survivability as a trade-off and have to go close to deal the damage.

[Lileldys]

What is it's group roll? I want to play one when the servers are live but I keep getting told they are only good for solo play.

High Damage output with a very strong burst window with Seal of Destruction, have possibly the strongest CC kit on melee dps with access to KD/Silence/Disarm which all do damage unlike some classes.
Also a very reliable initiative debuff and with a Swordmaster is basically a kill unless the target knows how to play (Kiting you out).

Knockdown wise, WH has theirs in the best tree. WL has it in a crappy tree for group play, and Slayer is forced to use dump his rage to gain access to his(meaning he will do no damage).

Silence - WH has a Silence which is underrated by a lot of players. Silence has no positional requirement to get the CC effect, and your groups KDs are on CD you will use this vs casters. WL Silence requires his pet, and Slayer doesn't get one.

Disarm - WH requires Parry to disarm, but with dual wield you will parry enough. If my memory is correct, WL/SL don't get disarm.

WH is perfect for DPS SM groups imo, where SMs usually don't take the middle tree for knockdown, prefering either Whispering Winds for Silence/CD reduction or Ether Dance for loldps. The combination of Swordmaster's Blurring Shock + WH Initiative Debuff is deadly with good assist.

[jojomen]

Damn man, your theory full of holes.
1)fist of all KISS\bullets Work not in same way;
2) if you give any buff to WE+WH , all of youtube would be full of POV PWNZ videos from ANYONE 1vs2-1vs3-1vs4.
easier to add skavens to the game - than this)))

Bullets kisses proc for a WH/WE. So when they do, they also proc for grp. I didnt feel the need to explain a well known fact.

Just to make it clear to you :
BULLETS procs only with execute skills of WH whenever he feels like it;
KiSSes can proc for EACH WE melee attack .

so in the end if you are end up with BAD WH , you will never get that Party buff- and any WE will constantly buff her teammates to the point - that you would make another THREAD to ask reverse this changes.

[Danielle]

What is it's group roll? I want to play one when the servers are live but I keep getting told they are only good for solo play.

High Damage output with a very strong burst window with Seal of Destruction, have possibly the strongest CC kit on melee dps with access to KD/Silence/Disarm which all do damage unlike some classes.
Also a very reliable initiative debuff and with a Swordmaster is basically a kill unless the target knows how to play (Kiting you out).

Knockdown wise, WH has theirs in the best tree. WL has it in a crappy tree for group play, and Slayer is forced to use dump his rage to gain access to his(meaning he will do no damage).

Silence - WH has a Silence which is underrated by a lot of players. Silence has no positional requirement to get the CC effect, and your groups KDs are on CD you will use this vs casters. WL Silence requires his pet, and Slayer doesn't get one.

Disarm - WH requires Parry to disarm, but with dual wield you will parry enough. If my memory is correct, WL/SL don't get disarm.

WH is perfect for DPS SM groups imo, where SMs usually don't take the middle tree for knockdown, prefering either Whispering Winds for Silence/CD reduction or Ether Dance for loldps. The combination of Swordmaster's Blurring Shock + WH Initiative Debuff is deadly with good assist.

I'd just like to add that you need either RR50 or full annihilator in order to have Seal of Destruction in a regular WH 6v6 spec, which means that so far it's only me who can use that skill without having a suboptimal gear setup and imho most people won't be able to use it at all, because not that many people have full anni yet. (Yeah I know, you hardcore ppl could probably have 3 full sets already)

[Lileldys]

There's a tactic that makes your bullet proc 5% more likely to be critically hit by everyone in your group.

That being said I think WE and WH are some of the best balanced classes in the game for smallscale. The problem is marauder's are way overpowered, which is why we see no WEs or Choppas. Also the WE and WH AoE tree needs a rework for both of the classes. I don't mind if it's the weakest AoE tree out there from all the mdps (as some would argue it's meant to be, I consider such arguments bs btw - I wouldn't say Choppa is meant to be the weakest ST class anywhere, because he swings his axes too wildly or WHATEVER), but at least it should be better in large scale than using single target abilities which it isn't.

Imo in a world of pure balance where conservatism, tradition and lore aren't taken into account WH/WE should in fact have the highest damage dealing AoE tree or best AoE damage bursting tree (compared to other DPS), because they have the worst survivability as a trade-off and have to go close to deal the damage.

Or you can use the Initiative Debuff bullets for extra crit.

I actually think that WH/WE AoE is super strong for WB v WB. But only in large 24v24. A WH in the backline with 100% disrupt+parry up going Torment->DragonGun->Torment->DragonGun->Torment->DragonGun, Spamming Outgoing Healdebuffs will win you fights if your main frontline doesn't drop.

Issue is is that on 12man groups you are better off single target, and in 18man groups you need the extra AoE damage from having an extra BW or Slayer to reach the amount of damage you need to have to hold positions or push spots.

Only change I can think of for WB is something like changing Sweeping Razor into Slayer Accuracy Tactic. Hitting 9 Targets with Razor Strike, but getting a higher damage reduction.

[Lileldys]

I'd just like to add that you need either RR50 or full annihilator in order to have Seal of Destruction in a regular WH 6v6 spec, which means that so far it's only me who can use that skill without having a suboptimal gear setup and imho most people won't be able to use it at all, because not that many people have full anni yet. (Yeah I know, you hardcore ppl you could probably have 3 full sets already)

I dropped the KD for 6man groups and ran SoD till full Anni/Merc. With tanks with brains it works, but you can't focus on a "surprise" factor as much.
Merc takes 2 days to get in a good group, and does a good job.

But when sitting on bugged siege it isn't hard to get rr50. :^)

[Danielle]

There's a tactic that makes your bullet proc 5% more likely to be critically hit by everyone in your group.

That being said I think WE and WH are some of the best balanced classes in the game for smallscale. The problem is marauder's are way overpowered, which is why we see no WEs or Choppas. Also the WE and WH AoE tree needs a rework for both of the classes. I don't mind if it's the weakest AoE tree out there from all the mdps (as some would argue it's meant to be, I consider such arguments bs btw - I wouldn't say Choppa is meant to be the weakest ST class anywhere, because he swings his axes too wildly or WHATEVER), but at least it should be better in large scale than using single target abilities which it isn't.

Imo in a world of pure balance where conservatism, tradition and lore aren't taken into account WH/WE should in fact have the highest damage dealing AoE tree or best AoE damage bursting tree (compared to other DPS), because they have the worst survivability as a trade-off and have to go close to deal the damage.

Or you can use the Initiative Debuff bullets for extra crit.

I actually think that WH/WE AoE is super strong for WB v WB. But only in large 24v24. A WH in the backline with 100% disrupt+parry up going Torment->DragonGun->Torment->DragonGun->Torment->DragonGun, Spamming Outgoing Healdebuffs will win you fights if your main frontline doesn't drop.

Issue is is that on 12man groups you are better off single target, and in 18man groups you need the extra AoE damage from having an extra BW or Slayer to reach the amount of damage you need to have to hold positions or push spots.

Only change I can think of for WB is something like changing Sweeping Razor into Slayer Accuracy Tactic. Hitting 9 Targets with Razor Strike, but getting a higher damage reduction.

The problem with that is that the Dragon Gun AoE scales with accusations, so the first accusation Dragon Gun is pretty small AoE. But yeah, I would make the scaling damage only and pretty much change Razor Strike exactly as you said. I agree with your point about viability otherwise. Another change would be to change the Blood, Faith and Fire tactic to give APs to group every time you do an execution instead of it's current useless implementation from live. Anyway we're a bit premature here, we can talk about this in depth when balance forums are up and changes to these mechanics and skills are realistic .

[Luth]

Imo in a world of pure balance where conservatism, tradition and lore aren't taken into account WH/WE should in fact have the highest damage dealing AoE tree or best AoE damage bursting tree (compared to other DPS), because they have the worst survivability as a trade-off and have to go close to deal the damage.

This is a common misunderstanding: The WH/WE do not have the worst survivability; when looking at the detaunts of the melee DD archetypes, they have the best: long duration/low AP.*
For maximum DPS, a choppa/slayer has to use a tactic that debuffs his thoughness to an abysmal value and while they are in the red stance their armor value and their resistances are halved.
If they use their group WS buff, they debuff their initiative values by a huge amount; i managed to debuff myself to 76% chance to be crit once (from ~20% without the debuff iirc).

The only disadvantage is the missing the charge, but that's because of their class mechanic (stealth). If someone wants to play with that, he has to roll a non-stealth class.

OT
I don't know why this obviously gamebreaking suggestion is even discussed, but in case it was meant serious:
The group support of DD classes is mainly the (deadly) damage + the deadly debuffs they deliver (they fill a "DD-slot", not a tank or healer one).

For instance the WH:
50% incoming HD
knockdown
iirc the best thoughness debuff in the game
depending on the situation, a short 50% out HD or initiative debuff, which can be both devastating
silence and disarm
movement dot
"sever blessing" against BO, zealot, BG and dok buffs; that is normally a tank exclusive ability
on RR70 the 100% HD M4, which is a death sentence for every target and decides any 6vs6 situation.
and lots of burst damage ofc

The general consensus on both stealth classes among the community seems to be that they are pretty good balanced.
I don't see why there should be any more flat easymode group-buffs be in the game, particularly on classes that are not underpowered at all.

Edit:
* Aza just pointed out to me that the quote was completely about AOE damage and obviously AOE detaunts don't help here.

[grumcajs]

WE and WH are fine. They provide high ST spike dmg.

Only problem = other mdps classes

Mara can have high crit too, crit dmg and top of that very nasty debuffs while still have more survivability
Slayer - SL. way too good ability + thanks to ID + berserk + high WS they do not fall back compared to WH dmg

You do not need to give mdps classes more grp utility. You should just improve their standing compared to other classes.

Also about that dragon gun....**** its horrible example. can it work - sure. but for that you need 1 WH in wb. so in typical 2/2/2 grps its optimal to make 1 spot open for DG WH (1 out of 8). Its same as AM puddle. Its good but for that you need just 1 AM per warband...

[Renork]

There's a tactic that makes your bullet proc 5% more likely to be critically hit by everyone in your group.

That being said I think WE and WH are some of the best balanced classes in the game for smallscale. The problem is marauder's are way overpowered, which is why we see no WEs or Choppas. Also the WE and WH AoE tree needs a rework for both of the classes. I don't mind if it's the weakest AoE tree out there from all the mdps (as some would argue it's meant to be, I consider such arguments bs btw - I wouldn't say Choppa is meant to be the weakest ST class anywhere, because he swings his axes too wildly or WHATEVER), but at least it should be better in large scale than using single target abilities which it isn't.

Imo in a world of pure balance where conservatism, tradition and lore aren't taken into account WH/WE should in fact have the highest damage dealing AoE tree or best AoE damage bursting tree (compared to other DPS), because they have the worst survivability as a trade-off and have to go close to deal the damage.

Or you can use the Initiative Debuff bullets for extra crit.

I actually think that WH/WE AoE is super strong for WB v WB. But only in large 24v24. A WH in the backline with 100% disrupt+parry up going Torment->DragonGun->Torment->DragonGun->Torment->DragonGun, Spamming Outgoing Healdebuffs will win you fights if your main frontline doesn't drop.

Issue is is that on 12man groups you are better off single target, and in 18man groups you need the extra AoE damage from having an extra BW or Slayer to reach the amount of damage you need to have to hold positions or push spots.

Only change I can think of for WB is something like changing Sweeping Razor into Slayer Accuracy Tactic. Hitting 9 Targets with Razor Strike, but getting a higher damage reduction.

You should write fiction novels, you would make bank.

Edit: And to everyone else who keeps saying LOLHIGHDPSWH. Uh, you're not on live. Also, you don't have LOTD nor do you have warp gear here. You will never see a WH pump out the same damage that was done on live on this server, ever. LoL M4, good luck building dat morale here.