[Rejected] [Engineer] Cannon Smash

[Tesq]

i didn't remember it also debuffed armor, then it's really not balanced with all other M3 around, with a secondary effect it should do 1800 damages not 2400, also the timer of the debuff is way to much for the damages done in it's currently form, all the other M3 have what, 10 seconds for the secondary eff?

[Bozzax]

Compared to CSs 30s incoming damage increaser up to 35% the other M3s 2nd effects are mostly fluff.

How does the CS 2nd effect compare to other M3s that increase damage?

Lets compare vs "feared Death" Reaper on WE.

Or CS 30s armor debuff vs DR +50% crits

35% over 30s > 25-50% over 10s
Physical only < all damage
incoming > outgoing etc ...

* Unless you have a SORC RPG group

EDIT:
If it also buffs heal crits DR ofc is one the best defensive M3 in the game but who knows and I haven't bothered testing it. "Critical hits" also increasing "critical heals" is also quite retarded but that is another topic.

EDIT2: The whole point of this post was to highlight that the 2nd effect of CS stand alone is good enough to be a M3

EDIT3: Think it as what would happen if DR had 2400 DD + 50% crits for 10s. Would be balanced?

[Tesq]

The crit buff is a damage increase but does not done raw damages,while the eff fell powerfull and it is, it can still be lowered by armor/reistences/tough+damages reduction stuff
Also that moral is a bad exemple it does not have a damage component and it's on a melee class which does less damages and less far than a rdps. That moral fell like a balance to order crit; be it good or too good is another matter ( remember no moral boost tactic no we+ be m3). The smash cannon should be compared to all other morales with damages+ effect.

No damages but only effect morales should be left out of the comparison vs 1 single morale in my opinion, they should be balanced maybe in future all toghter, if they are too good compared to these other morales which have a damage component. Moreover the WE moral 3 feel like a case which need a single focussed attention liek cannon smash is getting now.

[roadkillrobin]

I personally think the morale is fine, Engie have no internal Morale Boost, It's single target and a Morale 3. Its strong yes, but not game breaking strong, both the build up mechanic of morales and 1min cooldown prevents it from being busted. Externally its really anoying for sure, Maybe its time to implement the Wounds buff from reaching rr40 Vigor something, cant remember the name right now as this actuallt keeps Morale damage in check.

[Niky]

Engineer Cannon Smash 900 + 15s armor debuff.

[Tesq]

with the new gain ratio 2400+ eff is eccessive compared to all other morales which does 1800+eff @road,

if the meaning is being used as a opener maybe then the damages all istant may be divided in 4 tick every sec to preserve the 2400 damages but make it more over time and not istant as alternative option, the duration of the armor debuff need to be adjusted.

[roadkillrobin]

The duration of the armor debuff is pretty irrelevant, if it was an AoE debuff then yes, but as its sigle target it actually doesn't mather if its 10 or 30 seconds as a assist train needs to actually focus down targets in 5-10 seconds or else they risk getting killed themself and spending 30 seconds to kill 1 specific target the entire other team have allready ressed up. The only time its relevant is in 1v1.

[Karast]

While comparative the damage on cannon smash is high,

The secondary effect is very minor compared with other morale 3's.

The armor debuff while good, is not the reason people use the skill, and when used correctly gets next to no usage, it also does not stack per my testing, unless this was changed recently and I missed it.

A good example of abilities already mentioned is

Supa Chop which does 1800 and reduces AP pool by 50% for 10s
Tzeentch's reversal which is 1200, and a 1200 self heal
Grievous harm which is 1800 and a 75% damage debuff for 10s
scintillating energy which is 1200 and a 9s aoe stagger
Dominance which does 1800 and heals for 900
Instill fear which is 1200 AoE and a 6s AoE stagger
Gromril Plating which is a 7200 absorb shield
Suppressing the fragile unbelievers 1200 AoE and a 7s silence

A lot of people are bringing up the ability damage and ignoring the secondary effects of other abilities. I don't know if this is done intentionally or not, but it is important to look at the whole ability.

The question that needs to be asked is a 9s stagger worth 1200 damage and a non stacking armor debuff?

Is 1200 damage and a 1200 self heal as good as 2400 and an armor debuff.

The argument about cannon smash also ignores the fact that it is a morale 3, and that means a huge survivability tool in morale 1, and another solid dps morale at m2 have to be skipped in order to use it.

Also no dies to cannon smash alone. They die to 2-3 engi's spiking with coordinated cannon smashes. You should die if 2-3 people morale bomb you. You will die from almost any other 2-3 morale bomb. Cannon smash is not an issue outside of solo play, unless if you are fighting a premade with 2 engi's that have enough time to build morale 3.

[Tesq]

dont bring absorb on the table, they do not work vs morales, and chosen/IB bubble M3 are a self def tool.

-stag break on damaged(exept other morales)
-damages reduction dont kill, prevent an enemy to kill and those effects are on morales which cannot be load so easily as in chosen/Bo case and when you need an offensive moral you want it kill, so it's rather a downside than a good thing in most of situation.
-heal effect are not even near to a 30 sec armor debuff. The damage that the armor debuff increase after this skill is used grant the kill while a raw 1200 life more are 2 more hit with guard before die

basically used as finished it like a super finisher not only give the full damages 2400 but also debuff the target for 30 sec, it's a death sentence considering that rdps on order side are 2 instead 1 on destru and being it a morale it mean it stack with all other armor debuff.
If 2400 damages do not kill then the debuff will make it happen.

[blaqwar]

basically used as finished it like a super finisher not only give the full damages 2400 but also debuff the target for 30 sec, it's a death sentence considering that rdps on order side are 2 instead 1 on destru and being it a morale it mean it stack with all other armor debuff.

Unless someone can provide proof/a dev comments that it does indeed stack with other armor debuffs we can't really take it as a fact and nerf it on those grounds.