[Implementation Feedback] Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

[roadkillrobin]

1) Why cast heal WP/DoK are mandatory, in both small and large scale.

The reason they are picked in small scale is their durabillity, having both AoE detaunt (even tho it requires a tactic) and high armor makes em alot more selfsustaning since they don't really need a tank to switch guard to them if their in trouble at the same rates as the other healers do. So this gives the rest of your group (tanks and dps) able to play with more tunnel vision as they don't need to conistantly check if their healers are in trouble and this increase the efficiancy of both tanks and dps aswell. I'm estimmating that disabling the detaunt abillity when using a Chalice/Tome will fix this problem . The casttimes are not the deciding factor in small scale. If it were every group would run 2xRP or 2xZE due to instant cast heals as it tends to more about focus down 1 target at a time. In large scale groups DoK/WP are manidtory but they are also much better complimented by the other healers then those healers compliment DoK/WP in small scale. The consistancy and cast times is what mathers here. DoK/WP shorter cast times just makes the slower casting healers from the other classes work. They compliment each other. You run into problems when you have groups of for example Shaman+Zealot or Archmage +Archmage But thats not due to DoK/WP being to powerfull. Its due to the other classes group heals are to slow and that makes those composition's unrelieble as group heals with long casttimes are also more prone to interupts setbacks and castime increasers. The problem is not with the DoK/WP, the other healers are just to weak in large scales settings without them and can't preform their tricks like Morale Boosting and spreading out HoT's for armor proc buffs etz. If you wanna break this you need to boost the other healers abillity to effectivly groupheal. Nerfing DoK/WP isn't the sollution for this.

2) How that mandatory status is to be broken.

Covered this in 1 and 3

3) How their skillcap can be raised. My view is that this can be done in small scale by linking the melee healing to the casted healing, as at present, adding Divine Strike / Consume Essence and increasing the AP cost of Sigmar's Radiance and Transfer Essence. If you have an alternative suggestion to increase the skill requirement given what the class has, feel free to venture it.)

Remove Blood Offering/Supplication from the game completly. This is the skills that enables DoK/WP backline healing without being in melee range. Instead add to mechanic. Whenvever you hit an enemy with a melee abillity you gain 15RF every second for 5 seconds (Can't refreesh itself Designed to be used by Smite/Essence Lash) This will force the DoK/WP into 50 feet of enemy frontline to be able to pull of the same regen rates as with BO/Suplication and actually warrents you having better armor and casttimes as you're forced 50 feet close to the fight then other healers.

Wo what imo think gonna work (for cast healing that is) is the following:

Disable detaunt while wearing a Chalice/Tome
Replace Blood Offering/Supplication with a on hit SE/RF regen proc on melee hits and increase AP costs of Essence Lash/Smite to around 100 AP
Increase other healers groupheal capabillity.

[Tholkienn]

Remove Blood Offering/Supplication from the game completly. This is the skills that enables DoK/WP backline healing without being in melee range. Instead add to mechanic. Whenvever you hit an enemy with a melee abillity you gain 15RF every second for 5 seconds (Can't refreesh itself Designed to be used by Smite/Essence Lash) This will force the DoK/WP into 50 feet of enemy frontline to be able to pull of the same regen rates as with BO/Suplication and actually warrents you having better armor and casttimes as you're forced 50 feet close to the fight then other healers.

How can you go to melee with 1700 armor, without guard, and don't be instant death by the melee train?
With 2K5/3K, you can go to melee as a heal, below that, it's quite impossible.

[roadkillrobin]

Remove Blood Offering/Supplication from the game completly. This is the skills that enables DoK/WP backline healing without being in melee range. Instead add to mechanic. Whenvever you hit an enemy with a melee abillity you gain 15RF every second for 5 seconds (Can't refreesh itself Designed to be used by Smite/Essence Lash) This will force the DoK/WP into 50 feet of enemy frontline to be able to pull of the same regen rates as with BO/Suplication and actually warrents you having better armor and casttimes as you're forced 50 feet close to the fight then other healers.

How can you go to melee with 1700 armor, without guard, and don't be instant death by the melee train?
With 2K5/3K, you can go to melee as a heal, below that, it's quite impossible.

It was written from a perspectivee where the .ab ex mode isn't activated,

[footpatrol2]

Maybe this is a stupid question, I don't main a dok/wp, but how are you going to heal then during keep attacks/defense with the removal of blood offering/supplication when you can't get into melee range?

I guess increase book/chalice rates? if they need to be increased?

[roadkillrobin]

Maybe this is a stupid question but how are you going to heal then during keep attacks/defense with the removal of blood offering/supplication when you can't get into melee range?

By the increased grouphealing capabillty of the other healer classes (Had breaking up 2x WP/DoK groups in mind here)
Aswell as managing your regen with HoT and AoE HoT and Khaine Invigoration and Divine Mend as these two costs AP rather then SE/RF

[Valfaros]

So, I want to see explanations, detailed ones, of the following:

1) Why cast heal WP/DoK are mandatory, in both small and large scale.
2) How that mandatory status is to be broken.
3) How their skillcap can be raised. My view is that this can be done in small scale by linking the melee healing to the casted healing, as at present, adding Divine Strike / Consume Essence and increasing the AP cost of Sigmar's Radiance and Transfer Essence. If you have an alternative suggestion to increase the skill requirement given what the class has, feel free to venture it.

1) You need a grp healer for AoE otherwise you will have these lowskill bomb combinations present again in smallscale. Which I would highly dislike. Had that status in the beginning never want it back.
You could argument to replace backline heal with meele heal and I think it would be best if both is possible and equally viable but you always need someone who negates AoE and someone who conzentrates on focus heal.

2) I guess reduce other healers cast for group heal so they could take the spot as group healer. I think you can already do that to some extent but dok/WP just always does a better job. I kinda think this should stay dok/wp can't be a good single target focus healer and therefore his role is to be a strong group healer.
I wouldn't recommend to press him even more into grp healer by removing single target heals because it is important that the healers can to some extent fill the role of their mate.
You need this when some healer is currently not able to do his job. This brings also some difficulties in a fight. Bad healers will only concentrate on their job (focus or grp) and therefore forget about what is actually going on and won't see if the other healer is currently not able to do their job.

3) If you want to raise the skillcap in RvR then you have to do the same job with nearly every AoE class, every tank and every healer so pretty much everything. Excluding the wb leader who determines what the wb does you just sit there have your guard on you and spam all your buttons when the leaders say so. So you can say well dok/wp is so easy to play in orvr but I argue every class is super easy to play in a bomb wb. Best thing to do is turn your head off and listen to the leader. (you can probabbly hear that's not really my way to play, so don't take this too seriously)
You can try to lower the effectiveness of AoE to such an extent that focus WB's can compete but the more players the more effective bomb wb get that just how it is maybe think about something to change that.
You can't really raise the skillcap of meele heal atm because transfer essence excists. Neither do I think that any introduction of any skills will change that by much. MMO's are desinged to be easy to play so that everyone can play them and feel like they are the best players in the game. All these passive stats block, dodge, disrupt are stats that cause this. You don't have to actually block or actually dodge you just do so. All this you don't have to actually aim you just hit if the range is correct cause this easy playstile too but people like it so why change it then.
If you introduce more skills you will raise the skillcap but not by much and not for long because at some point people will find a rotation which does the best job. If people learn the rotation and forget about the rest they remove the skillcap again they won't compete to the players which still know what they do and adapt but this is already the case. You already can tell between good meele heal doks/dps doks and backline heal doks and medicore ones who just do certain skill rotations (eg festerbomb sw's or dot rotation bw's) . You can introduce heavy situational skills but there are only two situations in warhammer AoE dmg or single target there is nothing like "when target is kd (not really possible here anyway because kd only happen every 30s but I think you get the idea)" and such things where you actually have to watch what is going on instead of just button mashing.

I actually like the idea from another poster. When in CoV all your skills change to lifetap grp heals but you do less dmg (-50%). Therefore you actually need to try to do dmg to heal your grp instead of just spam TE. So you should lower the efficence of TE to an extent that it heals weaker as if you would to try to actually do dmg with your whole skillset. So basically TE should have the strengh of TE in CoC.
CoC I think is in a good spot you can still heal your mates if needed with RS and cooldown prevents it from being spammed so therefore it just is a good utility spot. TE isn't strong enough to actually replace a group healer but can help out when under strong aoe's or healer is currently staggered or under big pressure. Therefore it also offers utility which brings some skill into the playstile because you actually have to watch the enemy and your group and decide based on the situation what fits best.

I also like to point out people like to play backline grp healer with dok/WP. I understand that some are around who play it because it was op you don't have to listen to them. However I think it's good that you want to weaken the "must have role" of any class but I also think you should watch out to not nerv them too much. There will always be some setup which is best so if you nerv backline dok too much you just endup with another "best comp" which replaces the old one and nothing will be gained.

[Baiikir]

Remove fury/essence regen on book/chalice, WP and DOK will have to move close to melee to regen fury.

[Zamoth]

1) Why cast heal WP/DoK are mandatory, in both small and large scale.

- fast aoe healing that no other healing class provides
- better survivability then any other healer due to high armour and ae detaunt
- their covenants/prayers can not be taken away via shatter enchantment
- group cleanse (which is mandatory because of the myriads of debuffs in this game)

A setup with Shaman/Zealot simply lacks the steady "basic supply" of aoe heals, because they don´t have a grp hot/shield and 2,5sec cast time for a grp heal is clearly too long, and only hots and insta casts won´t keep your grp alive. For sure both classes have nice healing abilities, but if more than 1 person out of your party takes dmg, **** hits the fan. They simply lack the fast aoe heal.

2) How that mandatory status is to be broken.

You already did this with the latest patches, in a quite rude way.

I would rather suggest to reduce the range of all aoe healing abilities to 65ft (or even 50), so you are forced to stay in the middle of the fight if you want to heal your party properly. But therefore you need to have the amount of armour as it was (3500+), and i do believe that you don´t like this version of a dok. You can even take away the ability to aoe detaunt when wearing a book/chalice, to increase the skill level of these classes a little bit, by this you are forced to pick your detaunt target wisely.
Reduce the regen of Soul Essence by half and raise the amount of SE you get from Essence Lash to 20 /25 to force ppl to leave the safe ground and enter the heat of battle.

Furthermore it would be worth a consideration to decrease the casttimes of the other healers groupheals to 1,5 or 2sec and maybe lower their healing output slightly...

Just my silly point of view...

Vertexa of Despair

[Telen]

One thing about reducing the cast time of other healers to bring them more in line with WP. This would be a nerf. The burst healing from cloth healers is based on the m2 cast reduction while keeping the longer cast time hps output.

[Tesq]

Wp-dok egemony is linked to be front line line caster without

-No range limitatiom that force them to stay front/medium line.
-no reliable melee rec for frontline caster
- too many hard counter in frontline
Heal debuff x2, CC, set back( worst of all)
-defense meccanic based on heal spam with crit that grand an absorb shirld that last 30 sec making em pre pressure more durable.

My suggestion is keep the change atm but with somd fix.
Create a 4th stance as front line caster.
The backline currently is in par with durability with the other healers; kite with lower armor is not.

Suggestion:

General
-Book/chalice should confer dual weild to be effective as the sword and their regen still apply and stack with the stance one with the one from the armor buff).
-detaunt mirrored(actually they are not), use dok one ; wp one is too good.
-all covenant/prayer affect only the player.
-first path aborb tactic duration reduced to 5 sec

With armor buff:
-Armor still halved but chalice/book regen stack with stance because backline healers should not rec they are alredy less durable. If they need they have the channeling rec.
-essence 0.5 sec cast time heal made castable on the moving ( if they have no additiomal armor they need to be able cast in the move something).
-remove the armor buff effect, just make range double then when not active ( basically the sam as now) on st heals/ hot and give 8 rec x second.

No Covenant/prayer
-With no stance all st heals ranges the dok/wp should be halved.
-Melee aoe rec made undefitable but no damages
-set back ignored
-all cc halved exept silence which should break like a stag. But having a full duration will counter heal spam and only that.
-channeling rec became istant, all essence granted istantly but value halved.
- detaunt not breack on melee rec, and is core aoe.
-g-cleanse also affect yourself
-aborb tactic from first path effect increased to 10 sec.

Tactics changes:
Exalted defense--> work only on wp and effect reduced to 15% (mirror dok core racial tactic)
Bound by blood need check/nerf on how work with g/aoe heals to be balanced with wp empire aborb racial tactic.

Why?
-They suffer from rec problem in melee and durability due to elastic bar and very hard kd( in case of dok even ranged kd)
-when they spam aoe heals they are forced to melee rec so it have no sense nerf g/aoe stuff range
-instead the rec channeling was granted to rec problem during sieges, and is not istant it can be made istant while in no stance to allow front line caster in small skirm too but with only half the value( this because all healers rec meccanic are istant to use they just take 1 gcd: zeal/wp ap mark, am/sh ap drain)
- de taunt change is mandatory for melee caster that need to rec in melee. Aoe spam consume 60 essence every sec, with 8 rec x sec i can use only 5 aoe heals and then il done for( in the same time allthe other classes as backline healer can spam with out rec ap aoe heals) then need to use a not safe x2 reason ( can be def/ need to expose myself) melee rec every 5 sec bur my detaunt last 10 sec cd. This melee front line is unreliable and none do that.
They instead as back line count on very durable party and buff stack , rec just some in a while due the ap heal which buffed the dok/wp in small skirm allow them to stay backline.
So rec channeling and ap heal + front line def tools made em perfect backline healers.
-these 2 dimension need to be separate.
Backline spammer no rec problem/ melee spam rec problem; with different ranges and way to rec.
Also def meccanic need to be efficent at 100% because g/aoe heal spam is stationary under focus and you rely only in team mates to save ya from a very hard focus.


How this will translate. Due to double rec but lowered armor dok/wp will be able spam g-heal from walls. As backliners they will be on par with other healers.

They will be able to front line with absorb bubble + heal spam + efficent aoe melee rec /detaunt and no set back.
They are still less durable than tanks because detaunt affect only 9 player and melee rec work worst in small skirm situation.

Dok/wp backliners will have g-cleanse, absorb and hot as feature while rune/zeal will have marks/absorb and shammy/am snare pot and supposly they should also have aoe heals on the mo e so they lack 1 fearure currently.

Dok/wp front liners will be spam on aoe heals while under focus and st while not, st mean less crit for less and less absorb. Which mean less pre focus mitigaction.

For solution to melee dok/wp i alredy feedback it in the previously thread. Basically the problem are incorrect value/ proportion and melee heal based on damage done + mix between st damages and g heal effects on same skill.