Resolute Defenses redesigned

[roadkillrobin]

This is incorrect. RD was implemented to the game mainly as a response to the Quake/Heaven' Fury being part of almoast every single strategy. The side that landed a stagger on the moast enemy healer would win the fight. Both Q and HF duration have been heavily reduced

Conter 30 sec cd CC with 5 min cd immune? That was your own plan? Have you ever successed?

It was the offical explanation used by Mythic with the release of RD.
They didn't say Quake and Heavens Fury explicity but rather "Fights being determined early on by crowd controll" but we all knew thats what they meant.

The only CC added post RD that I can think of is the buff to Eye Shot and that was just a redsign of the Takedown + VoN combo you use to be able to do with SW.

[Aurandilaz]

Spoiler:

RD is a must have and for very obvious reasons, the abundance of CC in lategame fights. Especially that of ranged CC,e.g. SW/BW rKD.
Now if you decide to somehow limit or remove RD, it is a direct buff especially to those two classes, as SH/sorc ranged CC is borderline laughable on the other side of the fence.
Again, Mara pull (disupted often because what int) versus WL fetch (parried less often, high Str parry strikethrough), and somewhat lower number of Magi versus multitudes of roleplaying Engis with their pulls, the amount of ranged CC seems to be somewhat favouring Order side.

Then again, one could argue that 10rr points is an excellent cheap price for one of the best RA in the game. Maybe you increase the cost to 15 or 20, but even so, it still quite the must have ability.


IMO one possible idea would be that using RD hurts your AP gain for the duration when it is active, say -50% AP regen when it is up. This way it at least has a downside. Heck, even -100% AP regen would be a valid option, considering AP pots exist.
Other alternative is that having "held your defences resolute", you will feel an exhaustion immediately afterwards the buff ends, and suffer -20% to all your Parry/Dodge/Disrupt/Block because "great exhaustion overtakes you".
Or, instead of suffering exhaustion that way, maybe you will become selfsnared for 5 seconds afterwards, as you much catch your breath.

It's complicated again, as any changes to RD/CW will certainly just result in new imbalances.

When posting your solution, Respond to the OP and the issues he raised, "The role of those responding to a topic is to reinforce or debunk the original poster's analysis of the issue and his proposed solution. Analysis of the topic starter's post must be thorough, and any solutions posted by responders which compete with the topic starter's proposed solution must be soundly based around resolving the issue in question."

Prove using reasoning and evidence why his solution is invalid from a group perspective, i.e. the damage reduction or as others have mentioned the removal. Furthermore, a Mara pull can be interrupted by your groups tank, engi and magus pulls can be called out in voice coms and avoided using positioning or cc'ing the magus or engi and have common visual ques.

You need to explain why you think the AP reduction is warranted, your opinion is not fact, what does it achieve and how does this relate to the issues caused by using the ability resolute defense.
Gerv.

[Zemnexx]

There is a ridiculous amount of CC in the game already, and Warhammer doesn't have diminishing returns so RD is really the only good counter to give you a chance from getting CC chained into oblivion. Even at a 2 minute cooldown at max level requires decision making, as you are a sitting duck for the massive amount of CC both in RVR and SC's once it is on cooldown, unless you have something in your toolkit already. Honestly, it seems fine and only premades who want to lock down and take out targets without allowing for a fight would have an issue with it.

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

if we have to discuss the flaw in the renown skill here are few points

-renown cost is utterly low compared to what you gain
for only 10 pt you can get the first stack of the renown skill; IF we had to compare this to other renown stuff 10 rp are equal to
12% avoidance or a 38 points in 1 stat (7.6 dps reduction/increase).

-differnce in efficency vs tank's sovereign
The sovereign for tank alredy offer a immunity for the whole party every 2 min; what makes Resolute defense better is the difference with the sov immunity----> the snare immunity
Snare is a big part of the pvp in war. The only immunity for snare actually came for melee and this is exatly the reason why it was not given to tank sov and why tank for base can only remove 1 time the snare and not gain the immunity.

-balance issue vs no RD players
There is a great discrepancy between user and not user, this jump back to the renown points issue above.
These skill give a totall advantage especially in 2 situation: alpha trike and kite vs bigger number

now the alpha strike is self explicatory, the kite vs bigger number give an explain, at certain condition you should be able to kite...BUT this also mean you need to have the tool for kite and the skill to keep ppl snared and not get reach.
Also if you are able to kite you should focus on that.

Actually what this skill gave is both the chance to kite/ kill stuff alltogheter; only if there is the need you can use it and get immunity. Sovereign skill was more fair in this. All party get the immunitty at the same time and is gone at the same time; this make the access more limited than a personal cc immunity and divide better the steps from push/wait; atm all enemy party can pop RD in different moment prolonged the immunity to targets of enemy party to 1 full min.


-live different implemantation
Which lead to the fact that the ror implemantation is different from live (if i not mitake or got fixed in the meanwhile); in live you have first to use it and then remove the cc. The skill gave immunity to the new CC put onto you not the alredy present and was anyway still broken.

So for exemple you were snared you had to use skill then use juggernaut to remove the snare.

My idea of kite bigger group is that you should be aware of their existence and of your surrounding in rvr. IF i big group appear from no where onto you then you should die if you see it coming then you shoudl ktie it. Extreme solution which give poor/easy immunity only lower the skill cap , they do not increase it.

-overall dmg in small skirmigh
SKill like this encourage even more an aggressive play, IF the tank can spec more offensivly because the player is good and have access to such chep trick then the ttk in game in small skirm suffer really a lot; also ganking group became much MUCH more efficent in alpha strike with bigger group able to cause serious dmg which they should not be able to do due enemy bigger group having access to crow controll and be positioning a serious issue which ppl SHOULD NOT be able to toy with.
This lead to a TTK war where who put up the biggest dmg and faster to his extremist. You see all the offensive SM eh this is also what encourage this type of play where 2h tanks are also both hard to take down atm and are also able to hit too hard for being tank. This SM exemple is just that; is the whole tank categery which is abusing this the most. When a tank is snared and separate from the rest of the group his utility drop to zero.
Also with all ror changes to am/sh especially these classes are becaming too hard to catch.

suggestion:
-snare immunity should be removed, this should act as a personal tank sovereign buff with 5 min cd if sov is planned to give the immunity every 2 min.
-regardless to any change,, CD should remain 5 min: if there is no discrepancy in the CD then ppl may opt as in live for the 60% speed buff so if you wanna avoid future problems with sovereign implemantation or similar stuff the cd should not be reduced even if the skil is nerfed.
-The renown cost should be updated and other level should be removed from the game: They should be 1 single skill take or leave as it is. This will make it easier to balance.
-the cost should be 30 renown point. I wont cirle around this the fact to be able to gian a CC immunity with out any party restriction is dumb. Tank had to spec def set to give immunity to the party which mean a CC immunity cannot be give into an offensive buid and also it was only ment to be give to all at the same time. Which is exatly what tank are doing in small skirmish by abusing this; everyone is drop it when the single player need it.
-RD /all immunity skill in game should not allow to gain immediate immunity. You will be immune to new cc apply on you after the usage so no more retro-active immunity.

->I oppose to the dmg reduction because is not a whole party skill like sovereign one. The ppl which is kiting is probably not in the condition to put the dps and focus someone (may happen in rdps case) ; it is the other dps or the tank not focussed etc which are able to focus while someone kite around ....and at the correct moment their role swap ! allow the kiter to focus and those who focus start kite activating now in that moment RD. This make a dmg reduction implemantation flawled.... regardless remove snare immunity will make the kite more harder which lead automatically to a better balance. Removing snare immunity and increase his cost will make its use more in line.

@zemnex the only hard cc right know in game are

magus/engi stag of 6 sec, Tank abundance super punt and WE/WH 6 sec stag 4 sec true immunity. These are most likely flaw in their own. WH/we is broken as hell 6 sec stag 4 sec of true immunity lol, super punt need a nerf from a lot. Magus/engi stag proving to very long and it may need a tone down in future.

This is impossible to follow. I know english is not your first language but you need to post shorter and condensed replies.
Secondly do not appeal to an item proc or item ability when discussing the balance of any class.
Gerv.

[roadkillrobin]

There is a ridiculous amount of CC in the game already, and Warhammer doesn't have diminishing returns so RD is really the only good counter to give you a chance from getting CC chained into oblivion. Even at a 2 minute cooldown at max level requires decision making, as you are a sitting duck for the massive amount of CC both in RVR and SC's once it is on cooldown, unless you have something in your toolkit already. Honestly, it seems fine and only premades who want to lock down and take out targets without allowing for a fight would have an issue with it.

There is no such thing as lock downs with the exception of the unbreakeble root Champion Challange.
There is no deminishing retuens on CC coz you get 10 times the duration of the CC as immunities after the CC ends
You can block, disrupt, parry and dodge 80% of all the CC's in the game.

RD is problematic coz it gives ranged classes like Sorcs and BW up to 25s immunites with Focused Mind which is just broken.

It makes the few immunity buffs in the game lose value aswell.

[Luth]

There is a ridiculous amount of CC in the game already, and Warhammer doesn't have diminishing returns so RD is really the only good counter to give you a chance from getting CC chained into oblivion.

Please explain how one can be "CC chained into oblivion" once he got, for instance, a 3 second knockdown and has a 27 second "unstoppable" immunity after he's getting up again.
Hint: Immunity timers are longer with longer CC.

Honestly, it seems fine and only premades who want to lock down and take out targets without allowing for a fight would have an issue with it.

This argument is invalid, because aforementioned premades utilize it as well to prevent CC on themselves at the first encounter, which means that any group with it has a big advantage over a group without it. Once the first target is down (which is much easier when you can't be affected by CC but the enemy is), the enemy group looses damage/heal/tankiness potential and while the RD group can still apply full pressure, the group without is locked in the defensive role/into resurrection chain.

[Collateral]

Spoiler:

As people have said, the real problem is the CC in this game, which is frankly broken (collision doesn't help here either, which is a CC in it's own right really). I have not seen this amount of CC in any other game, ever. And this is where all these skills come in. If you plan on doing a group, or forming a warband, you will take at least one of these skills with you. It's so blatantly obvious and simple there's really no question about it. If you want to avoid the snare fest that is RvR (or well this game in general, because SCs are no different), you have to take these skills, especially RD.

Now I agree that there is no downside to them, and spending 30 points to have a 15 second immunity on a 2 minute cd is a bit over the top. I like the ideas that Aurandilaz suggested. Make the skill have some kind of a down side perhaps. As he said, when it's over it could apply some kind of a debuff. Or just reduce the duration of the immunity.

As other have said, the OP didn't take healers and tanks into consideration, thus making his suggestion way too focused on only one part of the game. But it's still true that RD allows dps classes to get kills while kiting (read: running away), like Tesq pointed out, giving them the ability to perform some pretty annoying things.

All in all though, I personally don't think any amount of change to RD will be enough to 'balance' the game, since the very core thing that RD focuses on, CC, is so broken. But that is perhaps something for a different discussion in some future, distant or not.

You contradict yourself, "no downside" "but 30 points for a 15 second immunity is over the top". You fail to support your addition of a debuff with any reason why or how this resolves the issues created by the ability. The balance forum are not a +1 posting sub-forum. The ability for a class to perfor m annoying "things" is not a argument.
Gerv.

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

i agree the cc thing be a little out here but we go from 1 extremist to another one.

use 1 broken thing to coutner another 1 is out of discussion.

to validate both point here is a list of usefeullf info

pre 1.4.7 this is how cc worked:

all melee KD 2sec (also aoe)
all rpd KD 2 sec
mara/wl root M1 last 5 sec
we/wh sefl punt stag for 3 sec Immunity 20 sec (true immunity 13 sec)
magus7engi stag 3 sec

after 1.4.8 situation + ror changes:

all melee kd 3 sec
all rdps kd 3 sec
mara/wl m1 root 10 sec
we/we self punt stag 6 sec immunity 10 sec (true immunity 4 sec)
+
magus/engi stag 6 sec

dev may want to take this in consideration after nerf RD. You may also need to nerf all dps and rdp CC back to how tehy were suppose to be.

this is especially true when caster disarm where left 3 sec ; there always was a difference between KD and silence/disarm because the first is better; they should be either 4 sec disarm and 3 sec KD or 2 sec KD and 3 sec disarm. Since KD is better than silence/disarm and work vs anything ther alweays was 1 sec difference. Moreover tank should do cc it's clear in snare stuff

tank 10 sec duration 5 sec cd /melee 5 sec duration 10 sec cd

so al dd and rdd cc should be 2 sec for KD and all disarm silence should be 3 sec. (if a tank can silence it should be 4 sec).

Off-topic. Gerv.

[roadkillrobin]

Spoiler:

Tbh its really hard to compare RoR with anything post 1.4 patch as Defensive Sov, DF and WF was equalizing alot of the issues that was existing pre 1.4. We are however using alot of the combat mechanics from 1.4.x patches but without the gear it was ballanced for. Its really messy tbh.

Off- topic, Gerv.

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

Tbh its really hard to compare RoR with anything post 1.4 patch as Defensive Sov, DF and WF was equalizing alot of the issues that was existing pre 1.4. We are however using alot of the combat mechanics from 1.4.x patches but without the gear it was ballanced for. Its really messy tbh.

we had acces en mass to def sov since 1.3.4/6 when the city istances were re-designed i think we can safty compare it at least with that sov meta.

When the renown skill not even exist and 1.4.7 not messed these stuff interation

Off-topic, the existence of gear and its associated procs are not relevant in the discussion of the ability and its impact on the group play aspect of the game. Gerv.