WL/Mara and IB/BG armor debuff swap

[Tesq]

And to add on to that ease of use comment let us also not forget to mention the fact that WL/Mara armor debuff is undefendable, the ability being so gives even less justification as to why they should have access to the highest value armor debuffs in the game

yes that was what i added to gate post, this basically make sorta balanced; one is higer value but require to hit and can be cleansed, the other one is lower in value but undefeatable.

Also this can be se as an indirect nerf to melee in general; tough as peter sayd maybe sw/slayer can have a better edge it will requrie take an IB instead SM, it depend how much you see atm in the currently meta the ib vs sm tough no clue on this.

BUT generaly this make a better return overall for rdps as now the better in value armor debuff is linked to a tank so this mean the dps pick can be more generously and free of armor debuff. Usually when something get moved on tanks it's easier to have it on the group, since when something is on a dps it limit more the dps party comp and is sorta usually internal balanced with the dps itself rather than to group wide; so this is basically a rebalance since armor debuff is staple in any form in any group for small scale this should both help generally to close the gap between melee traind and rdps comp and give some love to BG/IB if ppl see the need of it; it can lead to interesting things thats why i tried to re-up it after @gate proposal was declined would be worth even 2 week of test imo since per se is pretty simple we may test in practise to what it lead.

[Nefarian78]

Lets not forget there is big difference between WL/ Mara and IB/BG armor debuff abilities:
Ease of Use
White LIon and Marauder have good mobility abilities and pulls, they also have high armor debuff abilities on demand. They can pick targets from long range and quickly debuff.
Ironbreaker and Blackguard for lower armor debuffs still need not only to reach targets but to get 100 Grudges/ 100 Hate.
My 40/42 WL, 10 pts in hunter tree, Force Opportunity 1400 armor debuff
my 40/41 Marauder, 11 pts savagery tree, Cutting Claw 1440 armor debuff
my 40/44 Ironbreaker, not typical 15 pts vengeance tree, Stone Breaker 1280 armor debuff with 100 grudges, 960 at 75 grudges, 640 at 50 and 320 at 25 grudges. More often will be 11 pts vengeance, Stone Breaker 1152 armor debuff 100 grudges
my 40/47 Blackguard, 14 pts malice tree, Horrific Wound 1248 at 100 hate, 936 at 75, 624 at 50 and 312 at 25 hate.

I like the change, it can bring some new options.
I feel we have tons of WL and Maras around while IB/BG are rare when u compare them not only to knight/chosen but SM/BO too.

While it's true that 100 grudges/hate are an additional requirement, let's not pretend grudges are hard to acquire. A well placed Oathfriend will make your grudges skyrocket in the matter of seconds, if you also use Rising Anger you'll always be at 100 grudges no matter what you do to spend them. The same can be said about BG, altough BG doesn't have a Rising Anger mirror that always keeps you stacked on Hate.

The hardest part is going to be applying the debuff. Each tank in this game is as fast as a boulder, the only way would be to slowly walk to your target (and hope somehow no one notices you and puts you 2km away) and then apply it. With the current armor-stacking meta Mara/WL armor debuff is a must have for anything to lose any hp at all.

This is probably going to change nothing in IB/BG Mara/Wl representation in groups. Mostly due to the player's mentality of not trying different or new compositions. IB and BGs already bring in a massive amount of utility, buffs and are also pretty tanky, yet no one even tries using one in a serious group comp. There's also the fact that BO/SM and CH/KOTB are way way easier to play, and Auras/bellows completely removes the possiblity of screwing up.

Grudge based ability that requires you to actually do stuff? I present to you Ch/Kotb Auras and BO/SM Bellows. They basically do the same thing, only that his is passive and requires 0 thought and yours do. Bellows require you to hit something or get hit at least.

Couple the ease of use of CH/BO and Kotb/Sm and the player mentality of being stuck using what they're familiar with and you've got your reason why no one uses IB/BG in "competitive" groups.

Having said that, without testing you can't be sure it won't have any effect. Game-testing this for 1/2 weeks is the easiest way of knowing if it will have any outcomes

[Bozzax]

Dont think they should be swapped IBs/BGs don't need it.


Lowering mara / wl to 990 and reducing values on armor tallies and potions 30-50% would solve a lot of problems though.

[Scrilian]

Don't know if it's worth testing tbh, I'm kinda not convinced with this whole group of tanks agreeing and patting each other on the back on how "overpowered" the armor debuff is.
It's like the previous thread, from one side dps-tanks forgot to mention all of their tools available to them and just want to be the alpha-melee. And on the other is purely def-tanks, that rely on high armor to be alive and want to do anything to hinder an armor debuff, with a maybe a 4k armored squig herder or two in between.

I want some cold hard proof on why it's an issue so drastic, what a single target debuff with a 10s cooldown but a slightly higher value is so overperforming, that it needs to be dealt with asap. I'm not buying the whole "lets nerf it so it forces people to have different builds now herp-derp".
Why a specced ability in the middle of a MDPS tree even compared to a baseline TANK debuff is beyond me, how about we address the balance at least within an archetype. It's not even a case of Thunderous Blow, since CC/FO has already higher cd an much lower base damage, so it can't be just spammed as a main hitter pre-nerf.

The issue of everyone stacking on armor talismans is relevant and acceptable levels of armor as a whole not yet even addressed, so I say the proposal on any armor debuff nerfs/swaps is premature.

[Pacso]

And to add on to that ease of use comment let us also not forget to mention the fact that WL/Mara armor debuff is undefendable, the ability being so gives even less justification as to why they should have access to the highest value armor debuffs in the game

But the WL/Mara have to spend 10 mastery points to have that armor debuff, the BG/IB armor debuff however are 'core' abilities. Mastery specced abilities should be always better than core abilities. Reducing the mara/wl armor debuff and don't change their accesibilites is a pure nerf, and it wont make "differenst specs" avaible.

[Bozzax]

Spoiler:

Yep a long overdue much needed nerf to op classes. Needs to be balanced with reduction on pots tallies tho.

Yes buffing IB/BG core armor debuff makes no sense at all

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[Foltestik]

problem is that the game isnt balance on lowbies gear, now armor debuff 1600 is too strong, but on live with rr 100 ger or with sov it wasnt to strong.
im not sure if anybalance change is good making on this gear

[Tesq]

@all

there are a lot of talk which are not relevant for the proposal imo

1-core vs spec armor debuff argument is not even true, regardless of the type any armor debuff require you to spec into it so it really make no sense describe the two as 2 very different things, armors debuff are not something as "take or leave" with fixed values you require to spec into it so any mara 10 pt spent in armor debuff will still be better than any core IB/BG armor debuff not specced in the right mastery. The only difference is that ib/bg will have always avaiable a minimun of armor debuff (crap one)

2-there isn't any real nerf to armor debuff as the best value is just get swapped , is not reduced in any way. The best max armor debebuff is still avaiable on both realm, the only meaning in this is

A- try to extent what melee train have to rdps comp
B- try do that while also help IB/BG

3-try to debunk the proposal around the hate/grudge management is uselessl; the mara/wl debuff atm is undefeatable and requrie no conditional vs ib/bg require them to hit, no way for bg/ib to do undefeatbale hits and +they require meccanic (tough CD is lower to balance the need to hit so all pretty okish really) this is in no way either a buff/nerf to armor debuff in game. So any fear for this to became so much powerfull is unjustified.

4-there is no need for an armor debuff/pot rebalance any rebalance will still leave armor debuff classes with an edge vs other since some classes need an armor debuff to work with the only thing you can do is make toughness worth more not the other way around. This is exatly why this proposal was made , swap armor def towards tanks will make more class be able to access armor debuff easier especially on rdps, move it on tank will allow 2x rdps set up to gain the best value armor debuff in game instead be forced to take 1x melee. Move it on tank make the party more in need of pick the right tank for the set up make all tanks more balanced in regarding pro and contr of each one so you are free to take any dps in whatever set up you want (since there are only 3 tanks x realm for 2 spot vs 8 dps x realm for 2 spot.....). Melee train will still have their best armor debuff in game if they pick the tank for the job, while this will also be extended to rdps set up no nerf here just a help to rdps comp groups to stand their ground vs melee train. Even in peter case of slayer/sw buff they would still require to drop either 1 kobs/SM so here other wide party buff go away , idk the IB situation in meta vs kobd/sm atm tought you would still loose group buff from either SM/KobS and IB is FORCED to spec in a certain way to reach that value of debuff. Still if there is any case of IB outperforming +1 tank SM/kobs then it should be bring on the table tough as said above mara can get bit hit by this and wl can instead spec into other build probably, so this is all well and nice since mara is regarded as > wl.

[mikke]

Spoiler:

Don't cut off mdps plz. They are most harmless guys in the game.
Tanks are good enough w/o armordebuff up. I got IB and it is good from all sides. Why tanks should get more? Or u want see mass dwarf spawn in t1?

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[anarchypark]

let the tanks be tank.
you're giving dps tool to tank for competing group spot, pushing tanks to dps spec even more.
it looks having many options for tank. actually it's not.
let's say BG finally got wb spot, by 2h CD + armor debuff. only that spec will be viable.
less variety. same goes for IB.

it's signature of the mdps. spec and choice.
but i'm not against testing. only if giving it to other than tanks.
melee SH/SW or WP/Dok?