WE/WH Elixirs Cooldowns

[Atropik]

Spoiler:

Id like to see separated cds on every of 3, thats pretty enough.

Debunk the current proposal with reasons your alternative would be more appropriate.

[ToXoS]

Spoiler:

Id like to see separated cds on every of 3, thats pretty enough.

This.
That way WE/WH can use SoD/EoIP in their rotation and be able to use SoM/EotC to help escape after the kill.

Same as above, doesn't address OP proposal.

[wiscel]

Spoiler:

I'm ok with the cooldowns as they are now, I do would like to see a shorter cooldown on Pick Lock, 1 minute instead of the 2 minutes.

Off-topic / no +1's

[wargrimnir]

Some pretty low effort posts going on here. If you need to review the rules for posting here, then do so. We start with OP's proposal, if it's not appropriate you need to describe the reasons why before throwing ideas at the wall to replace it.

SImply stating you like something else better, or this is fine, is not enough.

[Toldavf]

Can someone remind me for the sake of argument. Do these skills cost a gcd it has been a while since i played wh so my memory is a little fuzzy.

WH/WE have needed a little extra umpf for group play for a while. Being light armoured they are just so much easier to kill (people might think other wise atm but wait for the end game sets and see)

This is however a bit of a biased buff for WE as with swift moments you can do max opening burst every 30 seconds.

In short this change looks great for pug farming and ok for actual group play.

[Dabbart]

Changing the CD to 30s would mean that a WH could, in a 1min7s span, achieve 100% dodge/disrupt for 21s using M1 and x2 Shroud of Magus, and 17s of 100% parry with Repel Blasphemy. With only a small amount of Morale boost, a WH could maintain this. 1/3 of all time spent in combat "could" be with 100% dodge/disrupt(and over 1/4 of the time with 100% parry, but they can do that already) That alone is very powerful, add in Sigil of Sigmar for root/snare immunity and Declare Anathema with self punt... All of a sudden WHs become really, really hard to kill. And this with the current "issues" perceived towards avoidance rates...

Edit: this is wrong. I haven't played WE/WH in awhile. M1 only does Dodge/parry. Mybad. It reduces to a 23%(thanks Hastykrasty)

WE doesn't have RB mirror so the Parry isn't a factor, but has Swift Movements and Swift Pursuit, along with the aforementioned amount of Dodge/Disrupt time, again. Drastically increases the survival potential. A solid 12s of 100% dodge/disrupt along with Fleet-Footed/flee(if you don't want to spec Swift Pursuit[which you should])/AP pot/stealth would make it nearly impossible to catch a clever WE.

None of this takes Stealth or KD(of which, both classes now have access to a rKD and a normal KD[depending on spec]) into account. Along with ability to dodge/disrupt/parry DoTs on every tick the proposed change seems more than a little excessive to me.

Edit: Plus, this change would basically guarantee that every WH/WE has stacked RR into Crit, even more than currently, as defensive RR would almost be redundant.

[Falkenstein]

Spoiler:

Changing the CD to 30s would mean that a WH could, in a 1min7s span, achieve 100% dodge/disrupt for 21s using M1 and x2 Shroud of Magus, and 17s of 100% parry with Repel Blasphemy. With only a small amount of Morale boost, a WH could maintain this. 1/3 of all time spent in combat "could" be with 100% dodge/disrupt(and over 1/4 of the time with 100% parry, but they can do that already) That alone is very powerful, add in Sigil of Sigmar for root/snare immunity and Declare Anathema with self punt... All of a sudden WHs become really, really hard to kill. And this with the current "issues" perceived towards avoidance rates...

WE doesn't have RB mirror so the Parry isn't a factor, but has Swift Movements and Swift Pursuit, along with the aforementioned amount of Dodge/Disrupt time, again. Drastically increases the survival potential. A solid 12s of 100% dodge/disrupt along with Fleet-Footed/flee(if you don't want to spec Swift Pursuit[which you should])/AP pot/stealth would make it nearly impossible to catch a clever WE.

None of this takes Stealth or KD(of which, both classes now have access to a rKD and a normal KD[depending on spec]) into account. Along with ability to dodge/disrupt/parry DoTs on every tick the proposed change seems more than a little excessive to me.

Edit: Plus, this change would basically guarantee that every WH/WE has stacked RR into Crit, even more than currently, as defensive RR would almost be redundant.

My Opinion would depend on what the devs want to balance 6v6? 24v24? pugs?1v1? you can't have equilibrium in this.

And now riddle me this: How do you get Shroud of Magnus and Repel Blasphemy while you also can't pass out on Burn away lies, Punish the False, Seal of destruction and Fanatical Cleansing.

Don't treat WE/WH as clones they are mirrors and probably the most balanced mirrors in the game they both have the same goal but achieve it in different ways and the meta on destro is different to the meta on order.

I'd also label WH/WE as not beginner friendly if you can't land 95% of your torments in the back you're better off playing as a offtank they probably hit harder than torment in the front ;D

I don't know what the part with crit means they already do 45 pts into crit most of them anyways which is good for you and bad for them.

Reducing the cooldown of trinkets/elixiers is probably not going to effect anyone and would be more of a quality of life change and as OP said would sync up better with the stealth mechanic and the hit and run playstyle that WH/WE persue. I also find the idea interesting to give them a lower shared cooldown what I would suggest tho would be instead of 30 sec cd make it 35, 36 or 40 sec giving both the attacker and the victim a choice the victim has a chance to run away the attacker has the choice to make if he wants to stalk and remain in stealth for 6-10 sec and possibly get discovered or risk the vicitm to get away or fight 6 seconds without the buff. As of shared cooldowns I would suggest 15 sec lockout as baseline in 15 sec many things can happen a sorc can pull of her entire rotation if armor pen was used recently or you might lack the damage now since you recently defended yourself against casters.

[Aurandilaz]

Changing the CD to 30s would mean that a WH could, in a 1min7s span, achieve 100% dodge/disrupt for 21s using M1 and x2 Shroud of Magus, and 17s of 100% parry with Repel Blasphemy. With only a small amount of Morale boost, a WH could maintain this. 1/3 of all time spent in combat "could" be with 100% dodge/disrupt(and over 1/4 of the time with 100% parry, but they can do that already) That alone is very powerful, add in Sigil of Sigmar for root/snare immunity and Declare Anathema with self punt... All of a sudden WHs become really, really hard to kill. And this with the current "issues" perceived towards avoidance rates...

WE doesn't have RB mirror so the Parry isn't a factor, but has Swift Movements and Swift Pursuit, along with the aforementioned amount of Dodge/Disrupt time, again. Drastically increases the survival potential. A solid 12s of 100% dodge/disrupt along with Fleet-Footed/flee(if you don't want to spec Swift Pursuit[which you should])/AP pot/stealth would make it nearly impossible to catch a clever WE.

None of this takes Stealth or KD(of which, both classes now have access to a rKD and a normal KD[depending on spec]) into account. Along with ability to dodge/disrupt/parry DoTs on every tick the proposed change seems more than a little excessive to me.

Edit: Plus, this change would basically guarantee that every WH/WE has stacked RR into Crit, even more than currently, as defensive RR would almost be redundant.

1min7sc, as in 67 sec, what a nice choice there for a timeframe of OPness.
Yes, they initially might pop SoM and gain 7 seconds of safety against Sorc/Magus(dps shaman dps zealot), followed by them possibly using M1 to gain safety against SH/enemy mdps for 7 seconds. For moral then they wait 53 seconds until gaining similar protection, or in case of WH, keep using RepelBlashpemy business as usual (no help against rdps).
Yet, this already exists in game, and from my WE and Sorc POV Witchhunters keep dying left and right, meaning they are either quite weak at staying alive or I just run in company that makes sure WHs remain weak and dead.
The parry buff of them barely keeps them alive against any enemy with brains that either knows how to remove it, or knows enough to avoid duel during those seconds when the buff is up, or really makes sure to hit them from behind.
The M1 is on 60 sec rotation, and many still prefer M1 SN for fast kills instead of the defensive one, you know, because they play the class in a way that maximize gank damage.
SoM is ridiculously underused, possibly perhaps because of how much better SoD is for making sure something dies, and after using SoD they then wait 60 sec and hope someone doesn't burst them from distance easypeasy during this timeframe. Same goes for WE, pop EoIP to get a kill, then wish that during next 60 sec no BW decides to burn you down and melt you from distance as you soak up all the magical dmg.

7 secs coverage against enemy magic is not "excessive" out of every 30 second, and I say this as Sorc and BW player. Its stupid easy to kill a light armored class from distance, and even if they pop SoM/EoC, you just wait 7 seconds and then start rotation again.
And even if they had access to SoM every 30 sec, many of us would very much still go for SoD/EoIP to get better killing potential, willingly sacrificing time and time again that extra offensive juice and secure a kill before we melt again when facing some decent rdps who knows how to kite a mdps to death.

Also let me ask you this, what is the current "archenemy" of any decent playing Sorc or BW? It's other Sorc and BWs, because of how powerful we are at doing ranged dmg, the light armoured classes trying to kill us barely achieve a thing.
Yet, as class designs go, We and WH should be the pros at hunting down enemy backline casters, yet currently are far from being considered a massive threat when you play in proper party. Sure, you can gank pugs and deal high dmg against players in pug scenario parties, but facing any decent opposition, the class fails spectacularly short of being a credible threat.
The purpose of Elixirs/Relics is to make WE/WH that spooky and deadly caster harassing class, and the current 7 sec every 60 sec is just not doing it.

To all those saying 7 sec of Disrupts guaranteed every 30 sec is much, it still leaves you wide open for the 23 seconds which allows about 3x Sorc/BW burst rotations to land on you, and still doesn't cover physical rdps and still keeps you dying to other enemy mdps players. I'd say test it, and if you somehow suddenly notice imba WE/WHs all over the place wreckings magical casters, then maybe limit it. However I am somewhat sure that any good caster will notice the buff, wait 7 second and then melt the "witch hunter" from distance, business as usual.


Also throwing in some stats: I play my Sorc during EU evening in endgame RvR, have been collecting kill:death statics with Deathblow addon, between June and mid November, 4.6% of kills done on me were by a WH, so much for being "witch hunters" and threat to sorcs. (Main cause of death being BW, SW, Engi, Slayer like 70%)
https://i.imgur.com/H6LdOM6.jpg

[Dabbart]

Yea. Cause for example constitutes fact. And you only target competent r40 WHs right? What kills you in what proportion again might not be relevant. It’s raw data for one person, and not indicative of really anything.

It wasn’t a nice choice for timeframe. It is the time it takes for all the abilities to be used, expire, and on rotation. we can look at it over a 5min period if you want.. or 90seconds. Or 373 seconds. The time is largely irrelevant, the numbers remain the same. EDIT: They do, but I **** up with M1 math. So yea. 67s was random to use.

And neither I, nor the balance forums care what randoms, soloers, or lowbies do or spec. This forum operates under everyone playing their class competantly. If players intentionally spec as glass cannons, then so be it. But You can’t use the argument that the change isn’t OP, because you don’t think everyone will even utilize it. Those that do, would be(imo).

You shouldn’t balance a proposal based on how many will use it. It’s use will be dependent on your tactics and spec, which is based on who you are playing with, and where. SC, RvR, etc. If your trying to say that you only ever use one spec or build then I think I found your problem... But most of the competent players I know actually respec a lot.

As far as I can tell, BW/Sorc archenemy currently are Disrupt rates and breaking LoS with their healers. Adding more 100% disrupts will not help this in any way. As you said, each class already has the ability to go shroud/m1. The difference, is now I could go shroud/m1, and then 23s later I have 100% disrupt again. 23s after that I can get another 14s of immunity. Or you could cycle them, so every 15s or so you gain immunity. Or just be clever with your timing and watch for any WoP/BB or other telegraphs.

Edit: this is wrong. I haven't played WE/WH in awhile. M1 only does Dodge/parry. Mybad. You can still go shroud/M1 at together to guarantee entry to stealth though, or provide near immunity. (thanks Hastykrasty)

The only argument I can see that kinda makes sense for this change is the stealth one. But I disagree with that, since it would in fact mean that whole steal thing, ONLY physical damage could prevent/break it.

Also, this could would help WE more so than WH, as Swift Movements already puts them on a shorter spike timer, but my issue isn’t with the DPS side of this, it’s the avoidance cycling. Hence, why I am basically ignoring the other shrouds/elixirs.

[Bozzax]

Imo anything giving immunity or near immunity should be on a 60cd just like m1 m2s