Need help with tanking on order

[Axerker]

I couldn't imagine tanking in a pug warband. You *need* a voice in your ear saying "OK, time to fall back" if you're pushed too far forward. You will also have an inefficient time tanking if you have a)No melee to guard while pushing, b)Not many tanks near you to push. That's why warbands are built in certain ways. I guess I'm not helping much... basically: focus on CC, HTL is your friend, Guard is your #1 priority, keep your head on a swivel.

I've only ever tanked in pug WBs, never in a premade/coordinated one, so my experience is a bit one-sided. I'm sure once I start joining premade WBs, I'll probably be like "Oh my god, so this is what its supposed to be like!"

That being said, with Pugs, Guard is used a lot less. When you're tanking in a pug, you're basically the one calling the shots whether you're the lead or not (this is also why, in my experience, at least 75% of pug WBs are led by tanks, because they control the tide of the fight). People won't push into an enemy unless you're in front of them. So its important to be the first one in to show people that its time to fight. You essentially have to steer the WB by your actions, rather than by communication. Its pretty inefficient, but not that bad. Of course, it backfires pretty quickly. Since you're the one leading the charge, and pushing forward, the moment you die, your zerg gives up. Guarding an ally makes you die much faster, so a lot of tanks spear-heading the WB charges drop Guard. There's usually 4+ tanks, so there are a few others who can Guard. But there's usually 1-2 prominent Tanks that are the ones directing via action. Because the zerg is following your movements, you don't want to be shifting your own movements to stay within 30' of your Guarded target. Otherwise you'll never move past the frontline, which I would consider to be really important for breaking an enemy WB.

[Fallenkezef]

Order situation is so bad I've sometimes ended up being the tank on my slayer as the only melee class in the SC

[Axerker]

Order situation is so bad I've sometimes ended up being the tank on my slayer as the only melee class in the SC

Since I play on Destro, its hard for me to agree. You guys sure seem to have a crap ton of tanks... lol

I don't know what you guys do about Destro tanks in RvR, but I just ignore IB/KotBS/SM when I see them. A lot of Order people just ignore me too. In a group setting, tanks are pretty harmless. (This is based on them being built for Tank, not a STR-based build - those ones can be a bit scary)

Probably 50-75% of PvP Chosen are in STR gear with 2H. Which was pretty terrible, but got slightly buffed with last patch (so now there's going to be more, lol). STR-build Tanks don't deal too much damage (compared to a DPS class, of course), but they primarily succeed due to people tabbing them, seeing they're a tank, then tabbing to next target. You can get in a lot of "secret" damage by them thinking you're a tank and ignoring you, then when you've brought them to 50% they realize you're not a Tank, lol. That's probably the biggest reason it can work, in my opinion. KotBS and SM deal a lot of damage when 2H build, and are still pretty flippin' hard to kill.

Edit: A lot of the STR-built Tanks also never, ever Guard as well. So there's that.

I think the reason there aren't a lot of tanks (who are tank-built) is because people want to be able to kill other players, so a lot STR-build. You don't want a STR-build "tank" leading your charges, lol. So that cuts the number of tanks in half, because they're trying to be DPS.

From what I've experienced (Disclaimer: I have no numbers to back this up, purely speculation and probably entirely incorrect), I'd say about 10% of Healers go DPS build (maybe closer to 25% for DoK and WP), and 60% of Tanks go 2H Damage build over pure tank. (In fairness, some DPS go purely defensive as well, probably like 10% as well - I've seen some Pure Defense Sorcs and White Lions)

[Stkillinger]

What about in the situations I am talking about, where I myself account for 1/3 to 1/4 of the tanks in the wb. If I push into their lines to force a retreat, it may leave nobody behind to guard healers and dps. I know these are less than ideal pug compositions but that is how it usually is with my luck. I still win plenty exchanges with a pug wb, it just feels like most of everything I could be doing is limited. Kinda like having more demand than supply and trying to fullfill the needs of too many people at once.

[bloodi]

What about in the situations I am talking about, where I myself account for 1/3 to 1/4 of the tanks in the wb. If I push into their lines to force a retreat, it may leave nobody behind to guard healers and dps. I know these are less than ideal pug compositions but that it how it usually is with my luck.

You should not bother yourself with how you can solve situations where you already lost.

If the dps you should guard (melee mostly, maybe some bombing BW/SW) are not with you, thats their prerogative, if healers are putting themselves in harm, thats their issue.

Of course you could all coordinate and be a perfect machine, it wont ever happen unless you actually are in a premade with comms, not a pug wb, so dont even entertain the thought.

Pick a mdps, tell him to stay close and go in, if you cant do so, hold the line, thats pretty much the basics of pug tanking in a wb.

[Axerker]

What about in the situations I am talking about, where I myself account for 1/3 to 1/4 of the tanks in the wb. If I push into their lines to force a retreat, it may leave nobody behind to guard healers and dps. I know these are less than ideal pug compositions but that it how it usually is with my luck.

Sorry, I was getting a bit off-topic. I personally don't sit by ranged/healers, others might. I don't think healers get hit enough to be worth guarding, since most heals have a range of 150', and most damage spells have a range of 65-100'. So they sit outside of range. Your ranged players should be nearly max range from the frontline, in my opinion. The other enemy ranged dps can't hit them that way, and they can easily snipe down, or CC, any melee that break through your frontline without having to worry. The biggest advantage to ranged characters is exactly that: range.

You're much more useful in melee frontline guarding a melee than sitting back in case an enemy ranged character is putting themselves at risk by being in the melee pit in order to get to your healer. They most likely will get picked off by melee before they can do any real damage. Terrain is the biggest factor here, but assuming you're working at choke-points, its impossible for their range to flank you (and if they do, they have to spend a few precious seconds not assisting their WB by killing your melee before you break through their line). So its a trade-off either way. Its also only successful if more than one ranged character breaks away, meaning even less damage is going out. Every good healer should be able to survive 2-3 enemies directly attacking them without much issue until they're knocked down.

[Acidic]

Well there is a lot in this thread that is similar on Destro side.

1) aggression is good, don't let the enemy settle, make them doubt themselves
2) running sucks if individual just decide themselves , need a strong WB leader to control the pugs. It's hard work but doable with a good dose of kicking.
3) run up front but always keep an eye on the squishes , squishes need love sometimes
4) join pugs with an active wb lead else all above is just a waste of time

[Stkillinger]

*ignore, forum double posted for some reason*

[Stkillinger]

What about in the situations I am talking about, where I myself account for 1/3 to 1/4 of the tanks in the wb. If I push into their lines to force a retreat, it may leave nobody behind to guard healers and dps. I know these are less than ideal pug compositions but that it how it usually is with my luck.

Sorry, I was getting a bit off-topic. I personally don't sit by ranged/healers, others might. I don't think healers get hit enough to be worth guarding, since most heals have a range of 150', and most damage spells have a range of 65-100'. So they sit outside of range. Your ranged players should be nearly max range from the frontline, in my opinion. The other enemy ranged dps can't hit them that way, and they can easily snipe down, or CC, any melee that break through your frontline without having to worry. The biggest advantage to ranged characters is exactly that: range.

You're much more useful in melee frontline guarding a melee than sitting back in case an enemy ranged character is putting themselves at risk by being in the melee pit in order to get to your healer. They most likely will get picked off by melee before they can do any real damage. Terrain is the biggest factor here, but assuming you're working at choke-points, its impossible for their range to flank you (and if they do, they have to spend a few precious seconds not assisting their WB by killing your melee before you break through their line). So its a trade-off either way. Its also only successful if more than one ranged character breaks away, meaning even less damage is going out. Every good healer should be able to survive 2-3 enemies directly attacking them without much issue until they're knocked down.

That's something to consider. If healers can hold their own i guess staying back to defend them won't be as helpful as guarding an mdps. I remember on my zealot on live that whenever I would be encountered by a melee train that I wanted a pocket guard, but I guess I am just selfish and wanted to keep others alive above myself, without having to worry about myself. But keeping myself alive was just a distraction. I want to contribute to a better order frontline, without tanks I decided to take it up. Tried white lion but with not enough guards to go around it kinda sucked.

[dansari]

Yep - was a lesson I learned while leveling my knight. Just because a healer is getting smacked in the back by one of the plethora of BGs in mid tier doesn't mean I should drop my guard on the WL in the front to go assist.