Min max vs pug level difference.

[Acidic]

Title of the topic;
"Min max vs pug level difference"

So after seeing how you usually make very indirect topics complaining about a class or some abilities, trying to create conversation without directly call out if there is something you dont like (can read your post history to see how you did so with Brightwizard and M2 to get it nerfed) Now you are in a situation where running your full utility Destro warbands, fully decked out to counter nerfed Brightwizard heavily stacked order warbands (CNTK and DnD) And still not finding much succes.

Honestly, instead of looking at balancing and trying to get stuff nerfed how about actually accepting the situation and the gab between organized guilds vs pugs with /or without fully organized setups. Instead of looking for things to complain about on Order side, look towards Destro side and see what NRM have been doing lately because they are the only good fights left on this server.

Lets actually look at some of the timestamps here:
- Other orderwarbands ran bw bomb warbands with old flashfire for a looong time on RoR
- Other orderwarbands ran bw bomb warbands with M2

But as soon as a premade guild comes to the server with a bunch of veterans and use the same playstyle they have used since 2009. it is time to get **** nerfed to the ground, where as others did use the exact same tools but to some lesser degree and therefor no need for changes.

I am not saying your complains are uncalled for, and some of the changes might have been needed. But maybe also accept that the difference in a world-first type of warband leader with the dedication of a madman will outperform your anti BW warbands, and eventhough nerfs, setup and numbers might close the gab. There will always be a gab.

This was not meant as a personal attack, I respect people for coming out fighting, even if i dont like the way they fight. But for the love of Karl Franz, just look at the bigger picture. (and give back old Close quaters, flashfire and M2) and I will show you how huge the gab really is!

I am glad if my topics make ppl think and as a result some changes are made, but don’t read too much into my super powers at making things happen.
This question is simply trying to understand the level gaps between well synigized , try hard and then me . Without some indications on this there is no balancing argument that a WL is under performing or anything else is over performing.

[Aurandilaz]

Organized Destro guild warbands in the past, such as Phalanx, LNM, TUP had relatively little issues defeating a bomb BW warband... and since then, well BW has been nerfed by losing both Flashfire and M2. And yet Destro pug warbands struggle against BW bomb trains. NRM does meanwhile very good in countering them, it isn't an "easy win" for them if they win nor is it an easy win for the Order WB to defeat them due to their pretty solid spreading and kiting.
From general orvr balance perspective, state of warband balance hasn't been this biased towards Destro... since ever?
You have pretty much every possible tool in Destro arsenal to counter BWs... Yet the Destro remaining in game on average would prefer to switching zone than fighting the one good order WB that is roaming the zone.

I don't honestly think it isn't a question of some "tryharding" when you have that one warband remaining in game that doesn't want to run trash setup but prefers to run optimized setups.

Yet, even then, optimal or close to best possible setup isn't guaranteed key to success;
you need a good leadership - who knows what to do, where to push, when to fall back, which aims to prioritize and which information to deem important and which to ignore.
But what you also need is trust - something that is built over time. That is maybe something you usually just attribute to 6mans, but it also exists for warband level. You need to be able to trust your teammates, your healer, your tank and your dps. You could throw 6 exceptional players together into a 6v6, against enemy that might have on average less "gifted" players - but assuming long experience of fighting together and trusting and knowing the limits of your team members, might still win despite lesser "tryhardness".


Good classes, good specs, good gear, good synergy, good coordination, good teamplay, good positioning, good leadership, good discipline, good formation...
If your enemy retains all of the aforementioned benefits, maybe next time instead of launching more "concerned posts about BWs being too strong" one should ask themselves, how to make your own warband perform better and eventually win.

[wonshot]

My previous post was made with the view from being the organized premade warband, I do however also do a fair share of pugging and from what I have seen so far, it really depends on the leader. Not to make and create, but to build and last;

Erihon is the prime example of this for Order. I know exactly what to expect of his warbands in EU noon - afternoon time. Not because he is typing alot of commands out, he has the same 3-4 macroes he uses for possitioning of the WB, he has the same type of compesition he is building towards each time and this makes for a very loyal and returning playerbase playing and joining his warbands when he is online. Erihon also plays under the guildtag of Vll who were born in the fires of the bombing era on K8P and Karak Norn and it really brings a tear of joy to see some of the old allies still playing with killing as the main drive.

Orcara, I have only observed this from the enemy side so nothing here is know as fact but simple observations, rumors and guesswork. He seem to be abit more coordinated in terms of getting people on voicecom, making compesitions not only with meta classes but aimed towards countering what enemy warbands are running with. He is probably running the closest of the pug warbands edging towards being premade, but I imagine alot of the players are changing from each time he has the warband up, so you cant really call it a premade due to the change of personel on each station.

Further down the list we got the leader of the open warband heroes, who daily take the abuse of having people not following the commands, being semi afk, getting caught, and leaving at first wipe. These are the "Every day heroes" of the game really. They are one of the main reasons action happends and zones lock.

Order:
- Romba, Tumba.
- Cature
- Blade

Destro:
- Lutz
- Onemantankwall
- Elvasoul
- Cerathul

Ofcause is it not purely on the leaders, the rest of the warband still need to followthrough. But leading by example you get the best results for your warbands and players will remember their experience with the leader the next time they open up the "L" window to see who is active and running.

[Loutre]

It's been a while since I saw Cerathul leading a pug warband.

[DanielWinner]

It's getting a bit derailed but as long as OP doesn't mind it and his questions got answered...

I will wait for his response tho.

[Acidic]

It's getting a bit derailed but as long as OP doesn't mind it and his questions got answered...

I will wait for his response tho.

Yea a bit derailed
Just to clarify what I am not after.

Order vs Destro
Bomb vs mele
DD or ...
Player skill levels
Positioning

What I am after is :

How good should synergies be , this would sum the difference beteween min/max and pug.

The reason for the discution is to help with balancing so we can understand if it’s a good model to have double ini type debuff and what level these synergies should be aimed at.

[Ramasee]

Alright so you are talking about equal skill level group; one pushing class synergy and the other group using whatever classes bundled together.

All classes have strengths and tools they provide as well as having a gap of things they do not provide. Using the double initiative debuff example; ASW brings the stacking initiative debuff as a unique thing and there are several classes that can work off that. SM's nature blade; wrath WP's castigation; AM's mistress of the march; Another SW using eye shot on the burn target. There is a thread I authored on the forums that details exactly how much value this synergy brings.

Synergies that are widely available (as in multitudes of classes can create it) should be potent for example the very basic one of guard + challenge rotations.

Things that are unique to a pair of classes or limited in availability need to be powerful enough to make them attractive but not so powerful to make it mandatory. (think old school proc meta)

People making full use of all the synergies of the game should defeat people who aren't. Not much different than choose to wear anni when conq is available.

[Bozzax]

That is cool and all but realms really need to have about the same max stackable debuffs / buffs else realms in reality work under different combat formulas.

Zele aoe armor, lack of aoe ele debuff after SM rework, chosen CS

Cc also needs to be fairly even

Distribution on class create synergy btw classes

[ragafury]

It's getting a bit derailed but as long as OP doesn't mind it and his questions got answered...

I will wait for his response tho.

Yea a bit derailed
Just to clarify what I am not after.

Order vs Destro
Bomb vs mele
DD or ...
Player skill levels
Positioning

What I am after is :

How good should synergies be , this would sum the difference beteween min/max and pug.

The reason for the discution is to help with balancing so we can understand if it’s a good model to have double ini type debuff and what level these synergies should be aimed at.

Synergies should be a thing in the bigger picture. broken combos? no.

At the moment it's more about to give a majority of classes a role in the relevant PvP areas of the game (aka largescale / WB and smallscale / 6man) and bringing classes on the same denominator so they are all valid choices in the areas to a certain degree with nuances in usefullness without violating coreconcepts, herritage, maintheme etc.; so they all add value to your group / warband composition with raw dmg, debuffs, hps, durability etc.

if you want to cherry pick the ini issue, at the current gear level it's a problem, with rising gearstate it becomes somewhat weaker. so it's a class that scales atm well, and later will scale bad / not as impressive as it does now (or more like did, to a certain degree); however, you don't do class balance around gearbalance, the gear will be outdated always sooner or later, the class not so much.

I myself discribed initiative as an overall volatile stat.
eg. a debuff has everytime use ofc. but the value varries; target a WH with an ini debuff and not much will happen, target an IB or DoK and he starts to burn.

the question will be in that specific issue if shadow warriors assault tree will be targeted with longlivity changes (so it scales in the long run)* before new gear is released. (I would say no, because it's considered as playable and currently SW lies on the ground, no need to beat a dead horse, atm. there are no changes planned to ASW afaik.).

there is the "official thread" of the balance group; not everything which was briefly talked about shows there up, it's one issue dan and peter are aware of.

if the list would cover everything that was briefly talked about, it would be a damn long list (balance discord had ~16.000 messages after 14 days and ~10 hours of voicemeetings in total).

*means powerlevel stays the same as it is now

[Acidic]

Ini example was just an example of one debuff that overlaps classes and has an impact. The thread is not so much about it but more about how much classes synergies and overlapping things should impact on classes performance.

Basically looking for something concrete in a world of fluffy things.

I see synergies as the basic of the game and important part of group makeup which makes difference for those who actually know a thing or two about other classes and thier ability to help own class. What I have not been able to do is quantify how much other classes should improve another class in a manner which is measurable.

The measure is interesting as it gives an indication of group vs solo viability