Coming back looking for IB idea

[zakgrin]

Incorrect. Outgoing heal debuff affects any heals cast by the caster. Incoming affects heals cast by others onto that target.

My understanding was that healing yourself is not considered an outgoing heal, however I see your point. That being said, an IB should never be able to kill a healer solo unless they are low level, or have absolutely no idea what they are doing. That goes for pretty much any tank.

I'm not even sure of the point you're trying to make - are you saying that it never ever happens? That's not true for two reasons.

1. It happens, I do it, I don't know why it doesn't happen for you, but punishing knock is the only reason it does happen.
2. Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Punishing Knock is a must have, it's absurdly good.

When you say solo I assume you mean 1v1 against a healer. If that is not what you mean, then I retract my statements. I listed two caveats of when it can happen, which is when the healer is low level (bolstered in t4), or they have no idea what they are doing. Since armor became the meta, 95% of healers stack armor talismans. If they aren't stacking armor talismans, then they fall into the class of healers who are speccing/gearing incorrectly. Ironbreaker's exclusively do physical damage, so even with the Armor debuff, most healers are still going to have a good chunk of armor left over. More armor equals less damage.

A good Dok is going to have 4k+ armor and should be able to stand there and heal fine even with an armor debuff and punishing knock. A good Zealot will have 3k+ armor and if they are paying attention, should always be cleansing Punishing Knock off cooldown. That leaves Shamans, the most likely healer for an IB to kill, and the ones I've personally killed the most solo. A good Shaman really should be able to kite an IB around all day long. Another thing to consider is a smart healer doesn't really even need to hit you. The less Grudges you have, the less damage you will do, which means running Rising Anger is basically mandatory (and if you are going up against a Shaman or Zealot, Avalanche is nice to have). I almost never run Grudge building tactics as there is usually something better, and if I do, it is usually Dwarven Riposte instead of Rising Anger.

[GONDOR]

ngl I'm not even sure of the purpose of your post - because you can't do it, it's impossible? Just a few posts back you didn't even know PK affects all heals by a healer.

If <4.5k armour is an issue for you doing damage you need more weapon skill. You're RR80 and should have enough. With Stonebreaker and ~560 WS you'll push people down from (4k) 90% to ~35% mitigation.

Zealot cleanse has a 5s CD, you can out rotate zealots into being stuck with the heal debuff. You can literally even wait for them to remove your snare before you slap them with PK, and they're stuck with it. DoKs can't cleanse PK, and Shamans have to choose between your two snares or a heal debuff.

The biggest challenge you have to face is the detaunt.

Volgograd has an ancient video on how to play vs solo healers, and the content covered is still the same. (Buff/debuff removal order, timing, etc.)

Also why wouldn't you run a grudge builder as 2h?

[zakgrin]

ngl I'm not even sure of the purpose of your post - because you can't do it, it's impossible? Just a few posts back you didn't even know PK affects all heals by a healer.

If <4.5k armour is an issue for you doing damage you need more weapon skill. You're RR80 and should have enough. With Stonebreaker and ~560 WS you'll push people down from (4k) 90% to ~35% mitigation.

Zealot cleanse has a 5s CD, you can out rotate zealots into being stuck with the heal debuff. You can literally even wait for them to remove your snare before you slap them with PK, and they're stuck with it. DoKs can't cleanse PK, and Shamans have to choose between your two snares or a heal debuff.

The biggest challenge you have to face is the detaunt.

Volgograd has an ancient video on how to play vs solo healers, and the content covered is still the same. (Buff/debuff removal order, timing, etc.)

Also why wouldn't you run a grudge builder as 2h?

The point is I don't want to give people the wrong impression about IBs vs. healers . It is very difficult to kill healers for the reasons I've mentioned. I never said it was impossible, but usually when a tank is able to kill a healer solo, it is because they are low level or don't know what they are doing. I can elaborate more on why it is so difficult. A side note before I begin, Zealots and Shaman can't choose what to cleanse, it will just remove the first curse or hex that was applied and is still active. So it is a good idea to layer your debuffs as you mention, with PK being your last one.

1. Doks don't need to cleanse PK to survive just fine. If you run into a DPS Dok, well all I can say is good luck. Maybe you are just an IB god or something.

2. Zealot's often run Endless Gifts which means their cleanse has no cooldown so they can cleanse every single one of your debuffs basically instantly. Zealots also rarely spec into dps because it is crap, so you are always going to be detaunted. You are going to have a very very very hard time killing a Zealot while detaunted as the detaunt essentially negates PK (and it is even harder if it is not constantly being cleansed). The majority of your encounters will end in a stalemate where neither side can kill the other.

3. If you are running into a shaman solo they more than likely have RUN AWAY! slotted (on hit 25% chance to increase movement speed by 30%). So right away even if you have them snared, their run speed is only going to be reduced by 10% and that's if they don't cleanse your snare immediately. They will also be running Sticky Feetz which is a 60% snare that is better than yours. As I said, a good shaman should not have a problem kiting you around all over the place. Of all the healers, I have killed Shaman the most solo because they are so squishy, the problem is you are not going to catch the good ones. As an aside, shaman pretty much exclusively do elemental damage so your only defense against that is having as high of disrupt as possible and runic shield which costs a lot of grudges.

4. Detaunt basically negates any advantage that PK was giving you.

5. Majority of Volvograd's videos were made before the armor buff/toughness debuff change was made to RoR and when conq was the best armor set in the game. Stonebreaker hasn't received any love since that change, and is a huge reason why IBs are not as strong as the used to be. Instead of applying that debuff on players with conq or worse, you're now usually applying the same debuff on vanq+ (and more recently invader+). Just to give you an example on how some his suggestions have become dated, he usually recommends having as much toughness as strength, but toughness is now far weaker than it was when he was kicking ass.

6. I don't usually run a grudge builder with a 2h because I don't need it. Solo roaming on an IB isn't nearly as good as it was on live. You are much more likely to run into a small group or warband than you are a solo dps/tank and especially a solo healer (unless they are dps spec which you do see more often, but will put you at a huge disadvantage). When I do run around solo I still try to engage with a group of order and will throw my oathfriend on a dps to get extra grudges. In a small group or warband, grudge should generally be plentiful. When I'm 2H I am always running AI and sweet revenge, and then the last 2 tactics have some combination of Greataxe Mastery and/or Rugged and/or PK. If I slot in a grudge builder it is Dwarven Riposte in place of Rugged, but again that isn't going to help you against a shaman or zealot because you can't parry magic abilities.

[GONDOR]

The point is I don't want to give people the wrong impression about IBs vs. healers . It is very difficult to kill healers for the reasons I've mentioned. I never said it was impossible, but usually when a tank is able to kill a healer solo, it is because they are low level or don't know what they are doing. I can elaborate more on why it is so difficult. A side note before I begin, Zealots and Shaman can't choose what to cleanse, it will just remove the first curse or hex that was applied and is still active. So it is a good idea to layer your debuffs as you mention, with PK being your last one.

1. Doks don't need to cleanse PK to survive just fine. If you run into a DPS Dok, well all I can say is good luck. Maybe you are just an IB god or something.

2. Zealot's often run Endless Gifts which means their cleanse has no cooldown so they can cleanse every single one of your debuffs basically instantly. Zealots also rarely spec into dps because it is crap, so you are always going to be detaunted. You are going to have a very very very hard time killing a Zealot while detaunted as the detaunt essentially negates PK (and it is even harder if it is not constantly being cleansed). The majority of your encounters will end in a stalemate where neither side can kill the other.

3. If you are running into a shaman solo they more than likely have RUN AWAY! slotted (on hit 25% chance to increase movement speed by 30%). So right away even if you have them snared, their run speed is only going to be reduced by 10% and that's if they don't cleanse your snare immediately. They will also be running Sticky Feetz which is a 60% snare that is better than yours. As I said, a good shaman should not have a problem kiting you around all over the place. Of all the healers, I have killed Shaman the most solo because they are so squishy, the problem is you are not going to catch the good ones. As an aside, shaman pretty much exclusively do elemental damage so your only defense against that is having as high of disrupt as possible and runic shield which costs a lot of grudges.

4. Detaunt basically negates any advantage that PK was giving you.

5. Majority of Volvograd's videos were made before the armor buff/toughness debuff change was made to RoR and when conq was the best armor set in the game. Stonebreaker hasn't received any love since that change, and is a huge reason why IBs are not as strong as the used to be. Instead of applying that debuff on players with conq or worse, you're now usually applying the same debuff on vanq+ (and more recently invader+). Just to give you an example on how some his suggestions have become dated, he usually recommends having as much toughness as strength, but toughness is now far weaker than it was when he was kicking ass.

6. I don't usually run a grudge builder with a 2h because I don't need it. Solo roaming on an IB isn't nearly as good as it was on live. You are much more likely to run into a small group or warband than you are a solo dps/tank and especially a solo healer (unless they are dps spec which you do see more often, but will put you at a huge disadvantage). When I do run around solo I still try to engage with a group of order and will throw my oathfriend on a dps to get extra grudges. In a small group or warband, grudge should generally be plentiful. When I'm 2H I am always running AI and sweet revenge, and then the last 2 tactics have some combination of Greataxe Mastery and/or Rugged and/or PK. If I slot in a grudge builder it is Dwarven Riposte in place of Rugged, but again that isn't going to help you against a shaman or zealot because you can't parry magic abilities.

I think the only impression being given is your incapability.


1. Do you have issues with DPS DoKs? I don't really have issues with DPS DoKs, even super geared. Maybe I'm an IB God ( ), or maybe it's you? We've got plenty of great tools and passive defenses available to deal with their damage. Lower their healing with PK and it's pretty much over.
2. You can GCD lock zealots if they're running Cleansing Winds, after a while you'll out-rotate them or force them to keep a debuff from you, or be forced to heal.
3. You'd be surprised how strong Rock Clutch/Champ Challenge chained into a KD is against a class that relies on kiting. Great shamans are hard to pin down, it's true, but there are only a few great kiting shamans.
4. We also have taunt and kneecapper. Net gain, IB?
5. The section of Volgograd's video I'm referencing isn't do do with gearing. It's literally about how to play. It's worth watching to learn a thing or two about clipping detaunts and it also covers debuff / buff removal priority. (For reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVffeuLa0iQ
6. Grudge is love, grudge is life. More is always better.

[zakgrin]

I think the only impression being given is your incapability.


1. Do you have issues with DPS DoKs? I don't really have issues with DPS DoKs, even super geared. Maybe I'm an IB God ( ), or maybe it's you? We've got plenty of great tools and passive defenses available to deal with their damage. Lower their healing with PK and it's pretty much over.
2. You can GCD lock zealots if they're running Cleansing Winds, after a while you'll out-rotate them or force them to keep a debuff from you, or be forced to heal.
3. You'd be surprised how strong Rock Clutch/Champ Challenge chained into a KD is against a class that relies on kiting. Great shamans are hard to pin down, it's true, but there are only a few great kiting shamans.
4. We also have taunt and kneecapper. Net gain, IB?
5. The section of Volgograd's video I'm referencing isn't do do with gearing. It's literally about how to play. It's worth watching to learn a thing or two about clipping detaunts and it also covers debuff / buff removal priority. (For reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVffeuLa0iQ
6. Grudge is love, grudge is life. More is always better.

No need to be rude... While I don't agree with most of the points you are making and I feel like I have already addressed many of them, I can admit that I am possibly wrong. I'd love to run some scenario's/roam with you so you can show me what I'm missing. I could respond to this further, but I believe we are at an impasse so I'll leave it at this.