[Kotbs] Lower damage output justification (ex Slice Through Tactic discussion)

[Foomy44]

Let's look at Chosen, he also provides auras, but also deals more dmg. What does Kotbs do better than Chosen to justify overall lower dmg output?

I hear they can snare more than 1 person at a time.

[zulnam]

How does having access to 1 tactic (which literally increases damage in aoe situations) prove their damage is lower thsn other tanks? There's a whole lot more factors there than just this.

I must admit my goal was to transition this topic into Kotbs' general dmg output discussion.
I should have probably just started with that.

There have been loads of talks on this already, and I doubt anything will change until we see hear from the realm champions chosen for balance changes; and even then doubt knight is at the top of the list. Some knights are indeed unhappy with the dmg output, some are fine with it, since knight has a lot of utility, even when in 2H (3 auras, aoe wounds debuff, aoe crit debuff, aoe heal buff, aoe defense debuff, semi-aoe slow debuff (i guess, personally don't think it's that great)).

I wrote about it extensively here and here

Way I see it:
things will stay the same and some knights will be unhappy.
OR
Knight will get a 2H damage increase, lose some of the 2H utility and some knights will be unhappy.

Now that I write it out, I kind of understand why no one on the dev team wants to touch balance anymore except for small tweaks. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I suggest switching to SM or IB if you're interested in good tanks that also do damage in 2H.

[tazdingo]

knight has additional st interrupt, and vigilance >>> oppression. knight is perfectly balanced as the best m tank in the game. if you want dmg pick literally any other class

- this isn't meant to sound like a knight vs chosen destro whine, knight is my 2nd favourite class in the game and like others have said i love because of what they already do. imo all tanks have been pushed too far to be more off spec compared to live and i'd hate to see the same happen to knight. leave it as the perfect main tank

[phononHYPE]

For the whole "repeating what others have said" argument, I'll say, from a snb knight POV, that I am happy to provide passive support that is unparalleled. It makes my job easy, it makes my teams job easier, it is what I expect other knights to bring (and chosen to counter). It is NOT why I chose to play knight, but it is the role I found works best. Even when I'm snb something wonky like 14/15/0 build (I'm in sov and have +2 points, and like to play around). Even that weird stuff is nice and passive and... just there. Like a knight. So, stay alive, 2h or snb, and boost your team.

[Klod91]

I suggest switching to SM or IB if you're interested in good tanks that also do damage in 2H.

Knight has the group healing aura which the chosen does not. The Knight’s Focused Mending + Stay Focused has been used as one of the arguments for keeping us low in the damage department. In general, we are best used at staying alive in order to keep pumping our auras during sieges and cities. However, you’re more than welcome to try a more dps oriented build in SCs and small scale stuff.

Just a clarification, it's not about being a dps tank. I believe that addition damage pressure is just as valuable as utility and tankieness.
My aim is to have a discussion and figure out whether lower dmg outup is justified.
I remember the devs said (during the QnA) that they are willing to hear structured arguments for class changes. And I feel like having a discussion about it is a good step towards presenting balance changes. Even with Realm Champs around.

[Foomy44]

Let's look at Chosen, he also provides auras, but also deals more dmg. What does Kotbs do better than Chosen to justify overall lower dmg output?

Chosen can do more damage because he is mostly spirit damage and that aspect of the class is mirrored with SM, not KotbS. Hard to compare things like that out of context.

I'm pretty sure KotBS auras end up being stronger than Chosen auras. 15% healing is a good example. Another big one is the fact that Order has access to exactly 0 elemental specific resist debuffs which at least BW and DPS RP both use, meaning KotBS resist debuff aura is a bigger dps increase than Chosen's for their realm. (You could argue Engi doing physical and Magus doing magical might balance that out but Magus can get their debuffs from classes other than just Chosen)

[Collision]

Snare is the most powerfull control of the game (no immun). That why you loose 10% dmg to change a ST skill to a 3 people aoe.

[mytreds]

Auras are roughly equal imo, but again, since knights have Stay Focused and because that is a necessary tactic in end game content, it really is an albatross around the class’ neck. Any attempt to raise damage output on the knight will result in many crying foul because Stay Focused is so valuable.

[Bozzax]

3 x 0,9 > 1 x 1,0

More damage (not less) and more snares

/end thread

[TanithScout]

10% damage reduced is nothing, 30% damage increased would be nothing. 50% Damage increased would be nice maybe make some paper thin 2h frontliner kotbs build pop up (...) but 50% of 200 is 100... so you hit for 300 aoe on a 5s cd? Whats the point? The reduction is there to remind you DAMAGE IS NOT YOUR JOB. ENABLING teammates is. So do it. Exceptions prove rules.