SW or BW for Ranged AOE?

[georgehabadasher]

I’ve played lion, choppa, slayer, mSH and SW extensively in warbands (tanks and healers too, but we’re comparing dps). In my experience SW is by far the easiest to pug farm on, but the hardest to play vs organized competition. It’s trivially easy to get top kill damage on SW because your range gives 100% uptime on your damage—you’re never running between targets—so SW cleans up better than any other class.

The problems arise because you just don’t have the burst options of other classes like channel-> m2, or ID/FS into channel. The sustained damage is good, and the burst is good vs pugs with Ww and LA->barrage, but the burst just isn’t there vs orgs. You also don’t have the ability to sustain during fights that the mdps classes do because your parry and armor are so low.

[gersy]

I’ve played lion, choppa, slayer, mSH and SW extensively in warbands (tanks and healers too, but we’re comparing dps). In my experience SW is by far the easiest to pug farm on, but the hardest to play vs organized competition. It’s trivially easy to get top kill damage on SW because your range gives 100% uptime on your damage—you’re never running between targets—so SW cleans up better than any other class.

The problems arise because you just don’t have the burst options of other classes like channel-> m2, or ID/FS into channel. The sustained damage is good, and the burst is good vs pugs with Ww and LA->barrage, but the burst just isn’t there vs orgs. You also don’t have the ability to sustain during fights that the mdps classes do because your parry and armor are so low.

for me i think the 'burst' is fine, against org wbs or otherwise, providing you have winds in the channel/morale drop window of your allies which you should if you are playing in a competent setting.

your 1-2 dots + ambush on the push + VoN LA (or barrage) spam is dealing quite substantial damage for 5-10 seconds and isn't realistically interruptible provided you have good positioning. unlike if a conventional "aoe dps" who loses a massive portion of their damage if they are CC'd or interrupted during their burst. especially SL for example, who gets hit by 1 of the gorillion aoe interrupts the millisecond his retribution channel begins and loses almost all of his damage. skirm SW is out of range of any of that and pounding huge LAs away 1 after another, taking next to 0 damage in the process.

the only trouble you face is in equal number skirmishes against hyper competent enemies, like in city siege or a closed zone GvG, where a ST party can more easily victimize you by taking advantage of your squishiness. however this skill level and type of content is almost entirely gone from the game so i think it's a moot point.

[georgehabadasher]

I’ve played lion, choppa, slayer, mSH and SW extensively in warbands (tanks and healers too, but we’re comparing dps). In my experience SW is by far the easiest to pug farm on, but the hardest to play vs organized competition. It’s trivially easy to get top kill damage on SW because your range gives 100% uptime on your damage—you’re never running between targets—so SW cleans up better than any other class.

The problems arise because you just don’t have the burst options of other classes like channel-> m2, or ID/FS into channel. The sustained damage is good, and the burst is good vs pugs with Ww and LA->barrage, but the burst just isn’t there vs orgs. You also don’t have the ability to sustain during fights that the mdps classes do because your parry and armor are so low.

for me i think the 'burst' is fine, against org wbs or otherwise, providing you have winds in the channel/morale drop window of your allies which you should if you are playing in a competent setting.

your 1-2 dots + ambush on the push + VoN LA (or barrage) spam is dealing quite substantial damage for 5-10 seconds and isn't realistically interruptible provided you have good positioning. unlike if a conventional "aoe dps" who loses a massive portion of their damage if they are CC'd or interrupted during their burst. especially SL for example, who gets hit by 1 of the gorillion aoe interrupts the millisecond his retribution channel begins and loses almost all of his damage. skirm SW is out of range of any of that and pounding huge LAs away 1 after another, taking next to 0 damage in the process.

the only trouble you face is in equal number skirmishes against hyper competent enemies, like in city siege or a closed zone GvG, where a ST party can more easily victimize you by taking advantage of your squishiness. however this skill level and type of content is almost entirely gone from the game so i think it's a moot point.

Yeah, agreed. It can do quite substantial sustained damage, but lacks the burst of true mdps and excels as a pug farmer. "Excels as a pug farmer" is why some members of the community view it so highly.

[lumpi33]

No matter if it is SW/choppa/mara/slayer/mSH, they all do very well with their AOE damage and when you are stacking enough of them in a competent 2/2/2 warband and you coordinate moral drops they destroy pretty much everything.

It's all about the "critical mass". If you don't have enough punching power you won't kill anything and if you do have it you cut through the enemy lines like a hot knife through butter. That's what you can see the try-hard premades do to "farm" people and it is pretty toxic to be honest. Fall back, wait for morals, roll over them, rinse repeat. They end up with hundreds of kills and barely any deaths. It's mostly because of their coordinated punching power, overwhelming their enemies quickly.

That being said, a solo or pug group SW is barely noticable, but in a coordinated setup it is a hell of a good damage dealer. So are choppa/mara/slayer/mSH. Everything that can dish out good AOE damage.

That's the big issue. When you nerf down one class, it becomes unplayable for the pug players and small groups and the pro-players just move to the next best class.

So yeah, in the right setup and warband SWs can be very strong. In the wrong one the destro melee train will destroy you.

Regarding SW or BW: SW all day, any day. Not even close atm.

[Wdova]

Everyone saying how ranged SW is OP especialy in Skirmisher spec. It is strong no doubt. I have 81 SW, 79 Slayer, 81 WL.

If I can compare those 3:
SW - Warlord/triumphan(no ring yet). Sits at 41% crit chance (talisman, pot, skirm stance, event item) with 747 base weapon skill, 6400 base HP less than 10% of parry/dodge/disrubt. In proper setup with SM with WW buff, guard and 2 healers it shines and keep up with the best Warband damage dealers. If there is no WW from SM it falls behind.

Slayer - Sovereign/Triumphant(no ring yet). The same if not better damage/killcount as my SW and feels more survivable thanks to defensive M1, charge, root break. Does not need any specific buffs from tanks or healers to shine. Require higher "skill cap" especialy with positioning, timing of channel drops, etc.

WL - Sovereign/Triumphant (no ring yet).Absolute unit. Has no drawback as slayer(mechanic, armor/resist debuff). Much more tankier than those two.100 or even 125% damage (with primal fury) available on impact. No waiting for rage to build. The same defensive toolkit as slayer (M1, charge, root break), better offensive toolkit (pounce, M2 drop).

If I could put them in line from best performant to worst it would be:
1) WL. obvious choise, no discussion
2) Slayer. Does not need any specific buffs to shine. Just pay atantion to mechanics and positiong.
3) SW. Definitely the squishiest. Your only defensives are M1 (against rdps) and backpedal. No root break (without M2 or M1 cleanse), no charge. Charge can be partialy replaced by shadow step. The problem is that switching stances has a 5-second cooldown, during which you cannot use your attack abilities. In proper setup with SM for WW buff and healers it can keep up with slayer and WL in damage count. Without it it and especialy if heavy CCed it falls behind.

To answer OPs question. SW or BW. SW is more versatile (ST melee spec) and mobile (backpedal punt). SW is more on sustained damage side rather than BW who is more burst in short window oriented. SW is also more mobile becaues most of his skills can be fired up on the move. SW has no self killing mechanics. In conclusion if you have friends to back you up, pick BW.BW was, is and will be the bread and butter for AOE warbands. If you are more solo/pug oriented and want to break ranged routine with switching to melee spec pick SW.

[Kaldus]

Hi Everyone

Thanks for the replies, appreciate the time to write them up they were very helpful. I've joined a guild and plan to join their warband, so given all the info, I'll lean towards the BW as I hope to be guarded and healed to get those crit hits to burn destro. The SW does sound awseome to, I'll maybe come back to that class after I'm higher level and better geared

Thanks again

[Farrul]

1) Can be significantly mitigated by AP pot usage or AP pumps in party/wb

2) 65 ft or even 45 ft is WAY more generous than the effective range other dps need to be at in wb play. Sure, you are squishy, but with decent to good positioning skills, that is a non-issue.

3) Refer back to the Proc changes of May 2024 and June 2024 where Group procs were adjusted with group output in mind and, in the case of the latter patch, the Hit frequency of Mara and WL AOE channels was adjusted with Group procs in mind despite them being provided by other classes exclusively.

Clearly abilities are balanced with group composition and synergy in mind, and will most likely continue to do so.

4) The point is that other classes cannot reach the same output vs the same targets. And of course the same goes for guarded targets. Especially if one considers the AOE range of SW and the fact that it can hit way more targets than most mdps, including healers (who are by default unguarded).


All in all, the class is currently a VERY high output dps class, but:

• requires some moderate amount of (positioning) skill

• performs best when properly supported by its party/warband

In pug warbands (90% of what's out there currently) in most cases you cannot guarantee the second condition and, even if you do so, pug wb leaders are used to SWs that are missing either one or both of the above conditions and as such perform really badly. Therefore, SWs are really not prioritized over mdps in pug wbs (unless the wb leader knows them personally) which further exacerbates their issues and which is why you dont really see them overperforming "in the wild".

If you ask me, the class should receive certain nerfs, but ideally without them hurting the lower end of SW performance (the unsupported pugs in random comp parties). I'd personally recommend setting the Barrage cooldown to ~8 seconds and perhaps nerfing AOE direct damage in favor of better AOE DoT options.

The synergy between WW and one ability ( lileath) is very niche compared to mdps proc that were spammed everywhere universally in all kinds of pug, organized , different classes, both factions etc. It's not really an equal comparison. There are some sick synergies in this game like for example the Zealot M1 which makes a target get deleted fast unless pocket healed and guarded, mentioned CoC which makes a herder's ranged attacks PITA sometimes, there are many crazy combos indeed to consider.

My points being that it and the SW skirmish spec has clear drawbacks, so the powerful part of it has also weakness to counterbalance. 65 ft is still painfully low range for such a squishy class that will melt the second it gets pulled, in turn though it does have some impressive dps numbers under ideal circumstances and a larger cone than MDPS, since SW after all is a rdps class( and lacks all tools mdps classes have). Apples & oranges here.

It is powerful but not ''grossly'' overpowered if one looks at the whole, the way it was described is as if it could always be spammed free-casting without interruptions or any drawbacks, and because of that should warrant a nerf, obviously the reality is quite different when up against equal opponents.

For the most part Lileath would have a 5s CD and let me tell from experience playing BIS Skirm SW ( rarely these days) that the AP cost of this thing makes it hard to spam. even with the 2 x pot, m1 and additional stuff the AP bar drains fast in any kind of prolonged situation. It is not spammy WL Slashing blade etc.