Patch Notes 04/01/2020

[normanis]

just when we have tank morale overall v2?
and when all order clases will have place in wb? nerfing 2h kobs ok maby they learn use shield in wb. byt ather clases? at moment slayer and bw is meta. never seen in guild where i am, we accept sw/wh/wl. so dragon gun nerf is for those who use wh in wb. there should be posibilities like destro have that any class ( speced proper ) have place in wb. not just 2 clas overall like order have.
also i dont mind +15 inc heal replace with turbolence from chosen.
also mara drain morales very fast .

[wargrimnir]

just when we have tank morale overall v2?
and when all order clases will have place in wb? nerfing 2h kobs ok maby they learn use shield in wb. byt ather clases? at moment slayer and bw is meta. never seen in guild where i am, we accept sw/wh/wl. so dragon gun nerf is for those who use wh in wb. there should be posibilities like destro have that any class ( speced proper ) have place in wb. not just 2 clas overall like order have.
also i dont mind +15 inc heal replace with turbolence from chosen.
also mara drain morales very fast .

Dragon gun/OYK is balanced based on the Mara drain that we feel is already at an appropriate level.
You get 225 from Mara, you get 250 (net change of +125/-125) from DG/OYK, 300/300 was way too high.
Balancing it was a totally separate conversation from the reason why it was brought up in the first place.

The Tank morale thread is another example of how the balance forum can be a pain to work with. The only consensus to be found is in silence, everything else is under contention. If it's not a buff, it gets argued by those biased for their class. If it's a nerf, it gets argued by everyone that has to fight that class. We get called both order and destro biased on the same page of comments. It's insanity, and nonsense, but we do manage to catch some obvious implementation stuff. It's also a very big project and takes a lot of free time to work through and focus on, things that are pretty slim to begin with.

The concept that ALL CLASSES need to have a warband spec is not one supported by the team, that's propagated elsewhere. Some classes shine in smallscale and suck in warbands. That's life. Pick your battles.

[normanis]

just when we have tank morale overall v2?
and when all order clases will have place in wb? nerfing 2h kobs ok maby they learn use shield in wb. byt ather clases? at moment slayer and bw is meta. never seen in guild where i am, we accept sw/wh/wl. so dragon gun nerf is for those who use wh in wb. there should be posibilities like destro have that any class ( speced proper ) have place in wb. not just 2 clas overall like order have.
also i dont mind +15 inc heal replace with turbolence from chosen.
also mara drain morales very fast .

Dragon gun/OYK is balanced based on the Mara drain that we feel is already at an appropriate level.
You get 225 from Mara, you get 250 (net change of +125/-125) from DG/OYK, 300/300 was way too high.
Balancing it was a totally separate conversation from the reason why it was brought up in the first place.

The Tank morale thread is another example of how the balance forum can be a pain to work with. The only consensus to be found is in silence, everything else is under contention. If it's not a buff, it gets argued by those biased for their class. If it's a nerf, it gets argued by everyone that has to fight that class. We get called both order and destro biased on the same page of comments. It's insanity, and nonsense, but we do manage to catch some obvious implementation stuff. It's also a very big project and takes a lot of free time to work through and focus on, things that are pretty slim to begin with.

The concept that ALL CLASSES need to have a warband spec is not one supported by the team, that's propagated elsewhere. Some classes shine in smallscale and suck in warbands. That's life. Pick your battles.

msquig vs shadow warrior ( msquig always have place in wb premade)
white lion vs mara ( noone need wl in wb if slayer do his aoe better than white lion) white lion cant even debuff ini/weponskill
wh and wych both has rough times to get place in organized wb because of loose dps
so conqlusion is order at moment is 1vs1 and 6vs6 biased. and slayer is good overall . also bw is good overall. byt game dont stop at solo roaming or sc caledor woods
engi and magus they are good on buth sides as aoe grenadiers/ pullers or asssiting with snipe. no problem here
choppa also has place in wb like slayer.
p.s before msquig changes also squig dont have place in wb, after changes msqiug got place. so its mean class balance on order will stay like it is?

[TenTonHammer]

The concept that ALL CLASSES need to have a warband spec is not one supported by the team, that's propagated elsewhere. Some classes shine in smallscale and suck in warbands. That's life. Pick your battles.

And this ideology that all classes shouldn't or dosnt need be viable at every level of play, that when you pick and invest a class that we should expect our experince to be restricted on some level (yet this is not true for all classes since their is some who are viable at every level of play)

Is a fundamentally flawed one and in turn has resulted in you guys creating overtuned specs like ASW whose power is "justified" by being crap in orvr

the fact that the devs have unilaterally held beliefs like this and cannot be inputted up by the wider community as a whole because were not part of the dev team so our opinions cant be concerned with

[convexte]

Dragon gun/OYK is balanced based on the Mara drain that we feel is already at an appropriate level.
You get 225 from Mara, you get 250 (net change of +125/-125) from DG/OYK, 300/300 was way too high.
Balancing it was a totally separate conversation from the reason why it was brought up in the first place.

Its only one 24 target cap for wh/we 10s (5 with SM if he landed WW/BO with tactic) cd ability, mara can proc his drain from each attack (and he have 2 aoe abilities with 24 target cap, one of them without cooldown), he dont need any support or even target to make morale drain.And i still cant see any other useful morale drain on order side, while destro have so many pumps.Looks pretty balanced.

For smallscale "morale bombing" you can just disable morale pump part, but no, global nerf, which even affect solo riposte wankers (at least i like this part tbh).

[wargrimnir]

The concept that ALL CLASSES need to have a warband spec is not one supported by the team, that's propagated elsewhere. Some classes shine in smallscale and suck in warbands. That's life. Pick your battles.

And this ideology that all classes shouldn't or dosnt need be viable at every level of play, that when you pick and invest a class that we should expect our experince to be restricted on some level (yet this is not true for all classes since their is some who are viable at every level of play)

Is a fundamentally flawed one and in turn has resulted in you guys creating overtuned specs like ASW whose power is "justified" by being crap in orvr

the fact that the devs have unilaterally held beliefs like this and cannot be inputted up by the wider community as a whole because were not part of the dev team so our opinions cant be concerned with

That ideology comes from elsewhere, it's not like we said we were going to do a thing and then did the opposite.
The observation that some classes suck and shine depending on situation is an objective statement, not a unilateral hardline position we've taken.
The "wider community" is a strawman that you can't possibly represent with your hot take.
We do absorb opinions from the community, whether or not we absorb YOUR opinions (a broadly inclusive YOUR, as in anyone who feels their specific opinions are being ignored) is barely a factor of concern. Not only are we limited in the amount of things we're going to change at any given time, whining that we didn't use YOUR specific model for changes, or YOUR timeline for changes, or changed X before changing ABCDEFG, is so wildly narcissistic I can't imagine how you function outside of realms in your own explicit control.
It is exceedingly rare to agree with any single point of specific feedback, but it's still taken into consideration. Because we read things. We talk about things. We're not blindly ignorant to the thoughts and feelings of players in-game or on the forums. It's like we're normal humans with very human processes and thoughts, and ability to retain information and make complex analytical decisions that factor in many different things as the end output can only be one thing, and we have to make the best of the factors that we consider. Crazy right?

[Cornerback]

The concept that ALL CLASSES need to have a warband spec is not one supported by the team, that's propagated elsewhere. Some classes shine in smallscale and suck in warbands. That's life. Pick your battles.

And this ideology that all classes shouldn't or dosnt need be viable at every level of play, that when you pick and invest a class that we should expect our experince to be restricted on some level (yet this is not true for all classes since their is some who are viable at every level of play)

Is a fundamentally flawed one and in turn has resulted in you guys creating overtuned specs like ASW whose power is "justified" by being crap in orvr

the fact that the devs have unilaterally held beliefs like this and cannot be inputted up by the wider community as a whole because were not part of the dev team so our opinions cant be concerned with

Agreed. Hence my earlier comments about priorities, potential use of balance forums etc.

[Detangler]

I dont get all the widespread hate people have - I love reading Wargrimnir's smackdown posts targeted at the whiners and trolls.

[M0rw47h]

If I can add my brick to the wall, I would like to point out that class viablity is indeed an issue in Order. However, when we're mentioning Order vs Destruction balance problems, we got other important problem. Destruction has access to tools Order doesn't. That was fine for a long time. Yet, since AoE cap was changed it become more and more glaring. Two most notable examples would be Marauder morale drain and Zealot Winds of Insanity. Abilities, which already had huge impact are kinda unmatched at current stage.

Now, since we agree some order classess are really inferior in warband play. I would like to suggest, that maybe, I repeat, maybe, our dear dev team could consider "mirroring" those effect on classes, which aren't great in warband setting. For example, AoE WL could get morale drain and SW could get something like Winds of Insanity. It could fix two issues at once and since those classes aren't great in WBs, they wouldn't be overtuned by providing extra options for warband play.

Just a thought.

P.S.
And when we're at it already. Solar Flare would be perfect for IB/BG

[normanis]

If I can add my brick to the wall, I would like to point out that class viablity is indeed an issue in Order. However, when we're mentioning Order vs Destruction balance problems, we got other important problem. Destruction has access to tools Order doesn't. That was fine for a long time. Yet, since AoE cap was changed it become more and more glaring. Two most notable examples would be Marauder morale drain and Zealot Winds of Insanity. Abilities, which already had huge impact are kinda unmatched at current stage.

Now, since we agree some order classess are really inferior in warband play. I would like to suggest, that maybe, I repeat, maybe, our dear dev team could consider "mirroring" those effect on classes, which aren't great in warband setting. For example, AoE WL could get morale drain and SW could get something like Winds of Insanity. It could fix two issues at once and since those classes aren't great in WBs, they wouldn't be overtuned by providing extra options for warband play.

Just a thought.

P.S.
And when we're at it already. Solar Flare would be perfect for IB/BG

well sw no need aoe knock back byt lileaths arrow and squig shoot thru u -rework . also rework of festering arrows its 10 sec lower to 5sec ( same for squig) run nshoot/spiral aoe tactic should remove damage debuff ( u already sacrefice tactic slot vs sorc or bw) and close quarters have all rdps clases