Shaman/AM nerf?

[Bozzax]

Shaman dual hots aren't a thing and offer ZERO advantage ... Knight x2 shatter + x2 damage combined with a CD-reduce means you kill your team if you use hots

Of the two AM is "better"

Btw The mechanic isn't "broken" it is just like SORC/BW most ignore it but you can play and "use" it.

[evildeadbird]

AM/SHM struggle for various reasons.
Some randos who died solo to AM/SHM "wtf **** op nrerf now game ded"

[Aluviya]

I would like to share my insights as a long-time player of this class and particularly as someone who plays all other healers in competitive content such as group ranked. Here is my feedback on this topic (I know it’s a wall of text, but it’s not avoidable in this case):

Preface:
The dialogue surrounding healer classes often gravitates towards a superficial comparison of their healing output, particularly the ability to heal multiple targets. This approach overlooks the strategic utility these classes offer, leading to a misconception about their viability in certain contexts. Historically, DoK and WP were often seen on par with other healers due to their city healing output statistics while they still are especially in their conventional builds (Book-WP/Chalice Dok) another odd balanced class one could write about. Same applies here. One usually oversees the healing Shaman and AM as their DPS counterparts used to dominate 1 vs 1 battles in NA primetime.

Why AM and Shaman Struggle to Compete with Other Healers:

External Class Pressures:
The ability to Shatter Enchantments in small-scale and competitive play severely impacts both Shaman and AM, hindering their effectiveness heavily. The presence of at least 3-4 classes in a normal group ranked game capable of removing enchantments in a single global cooldown exacerbates this, significantly affecting their ability to maintain crucial HoTs amidst lengthy cast times.

Class Synergy and Meta-game Dynamics:

The interaction between AM+RP and RP+WP pairings (or their Destruction analogs) reveals clear differences. Dual Blessing setups are more resistant to Bless shattering, in contrast to AM or Shaman, which can protect DPS class enchantments. Moreover, the meta's shift towards proc-meta, particularly for Destruction with increased covenant proc rates (check pictures included), puts AM into a heavy disadvantage due to its lack of proc-based contributions. Shaman's ability for morale boosting requires careful coordination, risking the free immunity giving due to its appliance after a CC hits. AM's morale boost, though potent, may not align well with the current Order meta, especially in compositions like Slayer/WH - while there are yet very powerful offensive morales on destru side which can be a deciding factor if available early such as Zealot Talon M1, Choppa M4.

Small Scale PvP and the Evolution of Healing Roles:
In the current Small Scale PvP landscape, healing has become somewhat secondary to damage output and covenant/prayer contributions, particularly for SnB-WP and SnB-DoK classes. Their positioning and resilience to CC make traditional kill strategies less effective, demanding more nuanced tactical plays. Conversely, Shaman and AM lack significant damage output, making hybrid builds risky and less viable.

Class-specific Challenges:

AM and Shaman Mechanics: Both classes suffer from mechanics that either don't align with practical gameplay or are hindered by their design. For instance, AM's Cleanse mechanic negatively impacts its balancing, and Shaman's dual HoTs make efficient use of class mechanics challenging.

Reactive vs. Preventive Healing: The dichotomy between AM as a reactive healer and Shaman as a preventive one highlights their unique approaches but also their limitations, especially in the context of Small Scale PvP. AM's absence of a second HoT, a disadvantage in terms of resilience to Shattering, distinguishes it significantly in small-scale PvP contexts. Shamans, with their dual HoTs, adopt a more preventative healing approach, or when mimicking AM tactics, do so less effectively due to the absence of Funnel Essence. Conversely, AM operates as a reactive healer, primarily leveraging DPS spells to capitalize on its class mechanics for burst scenarios, enhancing HoTs and achieving quicker cast times for healing. This reliance on Funnel Essence elevates AM's performance, positioning it as a premier single-target burst healer in the game.

Animation and Cast Times: Odd cast times tied to class mechanics frequently disrupt gameplay, causing delays in action execution.

AP Drain and CC Inefficiencies: The nerfing of AP drain, coupled with inadequate CC capabilities due to low intelligence stats, further diminishes the strategic value of AM and Shaman in PvP settings.

I could name far more but the conclusion is AM and Shaman possess unique strengths but the current competitive environment and class mechanics often leave them overshadowed by other healers. Addressing these issues requires a nuanced understanding of each class's role and the broader meta-game dynamics.
Some recent 6 vs 6 statistics regarding the proc meta.

Tha's a very interesting analysis. It is clear that the mechanic and the distribution of skills tied to the mechanic don't match. Maybe a solution would be to tie all the skills to the mechanic.

As I previously mentioned it is a very delicate line of balancing both classes. However my current vision should generally be that:
Cleanse - as a core mechanic to healers should not be tied to class mechanics of any class (not DoK/WP nor AM/Shaman) It doesn't align well with the class mechanic often resulting in players not or rarely using cleanse at all. In case of AM and Shaman it is the shift towards the healer mechanic and the bad output you gain from spending the countermechanic to improve cleanse. For WP and DOK it is the heavy cost class mechanic - these classes are already very mechanic thirsty in the long run and struggle especially while kiting. I suggested here already several times that conventional WP and DOK should actually be able to turn AP to classmechanic via cleansing which would already fortify both classes as both can't really heal while kiting (outside of hots)

[BluIzLucky]

Spoiler:

As I previously mentioned it is a very delicate line of balancing both classes.
However my current vision should generally be that:

Cleanse - as a core mechanic to healers should not be tied to class mechanics of any class (not DoK/WP nor AM/Shaman) It doesn't align well with the class mechanic often resulting in players not or rarely using cleanse at all.

In case of AM and Shaman it is the shift towards the healer mechanic and the bad output you gain from spending the countermechanic to improve cleanse.

Hm.. can't say I share this experience, maybe it's specific to Group Ranked or a utility heavy playstyle (e.g. casting 1x EoV, 1x Heal and 1x of utility; drain, puddle and debuffs to maintain mechanic balance)?

But for me, the only time you would NOT be full stack on either side was as solo, hybrid or pure heal with pre-nerf WW cast on CD (gone from at best 50% to now 33% uptime).

For solo cleanse with mechanic is actually good, as you get it every 3 sec, even better with Isha's Encouragement.

Hybrid in WB don't care about cleanse (too low value) and in casual small scale benefits like above.

For pure heal in +12 scale, cleansing is usually also pretty low priority, so doesn't matter.

That in my eyes, just leaves competitive 6-12 where you have at least 1 WW bot AND still only in cases you specifically DON'T want it to give points (i.e. occasional cleanse, but not spammed or no 5xTranq for EoV spam with WW ).


If a change is needed, I'd rather see utility spells always give counter point with different bonus (e.g. AP Drain + tranq = +20% disrupt pen, + force = +20% drained).



As for your long post, I agree in the context of Ranked, just don't think it should necessarily impact broader balance design much.

Also afaik RP+AM has anti-synergy heal bonus with RP's Blessing of Grungni and AM's Desperation NOT stacking, where it does for RP+WP..

[salazarn]

Shaman pays a price for being tanky. If you take the second HoT you have to sacrifice either the heal debuff or the silence. Either way you are no real dps. AM have 4 DoTs (one more than shaman) so it can do even more damage on the move. AM can be just as tanky as shaman, only not using toughness but M1 (for which you don''t have to spend 13pt like shaman, since it is core). Shaman/AM damage on the move has been halved since you can't cast I'll Take That/Balance Essence on the move. So I ask you again: what do you want more? How would you balance the class?

Finally, I can say that shaman is not the strongest roam class because that is not a "fact", just YOUR opinion. I play both side and I know just how annoying WH/AM/WL are. I would be more open to take your opinion seriously if I knew you played shaman/AM or even only both Destru and Order.

Wth is all this. Am has 1 more dot. Sham another Hot...and 240 free toughness....and movespeed buff... Im not even saying AM arent op. Both are for roam everyone knows this. Just that sham is even easier to play. And you act like sham dont get a morale 1. Gorksezstop vs 3600 shield both are good.

And who finds witch hunters scary bro. lol

I disagree and I already explained why, but that's not the point. The topic is about how would you "fix" shaman/AM. So I ask you again: what change do you think would make shaman/AM balanced?

Idk how you can deny shaman roam being op but ok mate.
Hmm maybe choose between being unkillable healer kiter and doing dot damage.

Your ability that increases damage by 25% and nerfs castable heals by 25% should also apply to hots and shields, you know..cos shaman dont actually need to cast a castable heal solo.

[Ysaran]

Wth is all this. Am has 1 more dot. Sham another Hot...and 240 free toughness....and movespeed buff... Im not even saying AM arent op. Both are for roam everyone knows this. Just that sham is even easier to play. And you act like sham dont get a morale 1. Gorksezstop vs 3600 shield both are good.

And who finds witch hunters scary bro. lol

I disagree and I already explained why, but that's not the point. The topic is about how would you "fix" shaman/AM. So I ask you again: what change do you think would make shaman/AM balanced?

Idk how you can deny shaman roam being op but ok mate.
Hmm maybe choose between being unkillable healer kiter and doing dot damage.

Your ability that increases damage by 25% and nerfs castable heals by 25% should also apply to hots and shields, you know..cos shaman dont actually need to cast a castable heal solo.

The "ability" you are talking about is a tactic called "Divine Fury". The tactic already work on HoTs. It doesn't work on absorb, thought the effect on absorb would be minimal. If you are "unkillable healer kiter" the you are healer, which means the you can kill ****, no matter the number of DoTs. Instead, if your DoTs are doing serious damage, then you are specced DPS and you are made of butter.

Also, let me give you some numbers. You have 3 DoTs: Life Leaka (15s duration, spammable, doesn't stack), Bleed Fer' Me (24s duration, 10s CD, doesn't stack) and Get 'n Smarter (15s duration, 10s CD, doesn't stack). With roughly 200 damage bonus you get the following damage:

Life Leaka 1500/15s
Bleed Fer' Me 2500/24s
Get 'n Smarter 1500/15s

For a total of roughly 300/1s plus 75/1s from Divine Fury plus 125/1s plus 56/1s from the possible critical hits (I calculated the damage assuming 30% crit chances, but even with 50% you don't get much higher) for a total of 556/1s. Even assuming you are able to cast Gork Sayz Stop you get 856/s. Which measn it takes a Shaman at least 10s to kill a target with 8k hp after you place all 3 doTs on the target (which is 4.5s more, 1.5s for each DoT's due to GCD). finally considering that M1 becomes availbale only after 10s of fight. And conisder that all these calculations don't account for the target Toughness and Resistence.

You can't cast I'll Take That on the move anymore, so 90% of you damage comes from those 3 DoTs, and the remaining 10% from Bunch o' Waaagh. It's not like you get one shotted. Shaman requires a lot of time to actually kill the target. You have literally no burst.

As a WH you can just use Shroud of Magnus and Charge and Flee and you are safe. Shaman has no gap closer so once you are 100+ feet from it you are safe.

And remember that Shroud of Magnus negates Mork Sayz Stop and the damage from the DoTs even after they are applied.

Even every other Mdps can just charge and Flee and don't get killed. As a shaman you kill only those target that are dumb enough to not flee immediatly. Now, this may seems op (flee or die i mean), but WL is even worst. You can't flee a WL he has pounce, pull, charge, flee, snare and KD. Same for Mara, thougn without pounce. Even WH/WE. With both classes you can't decide if you want to engage or not. They pop on you from stealth and you have to fight unless you manage to shake them off. Shaman can shake off WH, but most other classes can't do **** cuz they have the same mobility as WH. And same goes for WE and AM.