AM/Shammy Healing

[Nekkma]

They look at a hybrid and go bleh you don't have the pures damage or healing you suck. They fail to see that the hybrid is designed to fit in with both assisting both the dps and the healer.

Do you think the support role and 8 man groups made that possible? For a hybrid to work in this game they need to provide enough damage or healing (or provide unique utility) to replace a healer or dps. Running with 1.5 dps and 2.5 healers or the opposite does not seem viable against a standard 2/2/2 group unless the all classes gets a major overhaul to rebalance the entire game.

[roadkillrobin]

I can bring out old video if you want to see that RP/Zealot can do more then just heal.

Hope it's a 6v6 vid and not some guy in full warp killing low RR pugs in ORvR :^)

Posted link on page 11, It's wb action, at rr80 in full Sov i think before doomflayer and warforged

[Azarael]

Which is why you set them up so that they can either use their specializations surgically to tip engagements at the cost of general flexibility or set them up so that their output is 70/70 or more instead of the 50/50 that people instinctively think is balanced or (as it is right now if you try to hybridize) 50/25.

[Feidam]

They look at a hybrid and go bleh you don't have the pures damage or healing you suck. They fail to see that the hybrid is designed to fit in with both assisting both the dps and the healer.

Do you think the support role and 8 man groups made that possible? For a hybrid to work in this game they need to provide enough damage or healing (or provide unique utility) to replace a healer or dps. Running with 1.5 dps and 2.5 healers or the opposite does not seem viable against a standard 2/2/2 group unless the all classes gets a major overhaul to rebalance the entire game.

You act like 6v6 is all there is in this game. However, with the right changes and team work yes they could work there too. Just a different mindset and play type. Having more viable options leads to a wider range of strategies available which leads to a more diverse and enjoyable game experience. The 2/2/2 meta IMO came about due to poor balancing and messed up mechanics. Certain classes have way too much damage that two full time healers are the easiest to run as the healers can cover themselves mostly leaving the tanks and dps to do what they will. Not very a dynamic set up.

[Jaycub]

What about buffs/debuffs? This problem obviously isn't exclusive to AM/Shaman, but having a decent buff would certainly help bring AM/Shaman closer to being good in both specs.

Other than the resists buff that both the knight or rp can cover, we have debuffs again that are covered by knight and most MDPS so they don't even warrant the GCD.

You act like 6v6 is all there is in this game.

Even WB and large scale fights are technically self contained 6 mans within warbands. Most major mechanics/abilities work on the premise of a 6 man group... Group heal, buffs, guard, morales, etc...

While the game is for sure not just 6v6 the 6 man group it self is at its core. And so viability for a class/spec should be based on how well they can fit into those slots.

[Feidam]

Which is why you set them up so that they can either use their specializations surgically to tip engagements at the cost of general flexibility or set them up so that their output is 70/70 or more instead of the 50/50 that people instinctively think is balanced or (as it is right now if you try to hybridize) 50/25.

This right here is what I'm talking about. Ever since WoW people think hybrids have be weak because why bother with a pure then. 70/70 split would make a hybrid more powerful in a 1v1 situation because the hybrid is flexible. In a group the pure is free to unload while the hybrid balances his time based on what is happening in the moment. Hybrids can work really well in pvp hence why daoc's worked well IMO. Hybrids in a theme park pve game do not perform as well.

[Nameless]

imo shamans/AM got pretty good debuffs the problem may be the lack of ap or/and the block/disrupt since their debuffs got contribution from intel

for the resist buff i agree that could take some alting. someone propose group buff - ench that reduce the magic dmg by 10% or so. That way shamns/AMs bring something unique to the group /that stack with auras/ and help their group to counter bw/sorcs that got dots uncleansable for shamans/ams

[Shadowgurke]

If we work on a 100% viable heal spec first, then later on people will block the hybrid element because "AM/Shaman are perfectly viable healers now, they don't need anything else, what about Zealot/RP who can only heal?"

DoK/WP being more than viable healers did not stop you from focusing on their Hybrid mastery either. To me the discussion also remained fairly civil and nobody argued that the hybrid spec is not needed. My point is that fixing heal AM first also buffs hybrid and we can then go from there, rather than buffing a hybrid playstyle only to then buff heal AM and having to roll back on hybrid changes.

Hell, we have suggestions that DPS AM / Shaman are fine. I've both been flamed and seen others flamed for playing DPS AM / Shaman, so that doesn't seem like fine to me.

I encountered the same playing Hybrid AM. I was flamed by 2H tanks that didn't guard people while I did thrice their damage and KB while healing 90% of his DPS output. I was flamed by people because I only hotted them once rather than healing them with my subpar healing. Only once I was kindly asked to focus on healing for I was the only healer in the scenario. I don't think DPS AM is super viable, but I also think that people will flame them regardless of their viability.

Mythic didn't even make the most elementary changes required to fix hybrid mechanics - as such, you see one side of every hybrid class die more and more as item / buff stats, not base stats + tooltip, begin to contribute the majority of the power, so I believe their balancers never really cared to deal with the issue correctly.

I actually believe that hybrid classes can viable. However I also think that hybrid classes have a massive advantage to non-healing classes due to their sustain, which is crucial in zerg v zerg, keepdefense, 1on1 and PvE. Although non of these should be the main focus of balance, I don't think these elements should be ignored. One way to go about it is to give really solid utility to the hybrids. We're talking about groupcleanse kind of utility.

[Feidam]

What about buffs/debuffs?

You act like 6v6 is all there is in this game.

Even WB and large scale fights are technically self contained 6 mans within warbands. Most major mechanics/abilities work on the premise of a 6 man group... Group heal, buffs, guard, morales, etc...

While the game is for sure not just 6v6 the 6 man group it self is at its core. And so viability for a class/spec should be based on how well they can fit into those slots.

While that is true to an extent in a warband situation you are not just healing your group of 6 unless all you do is spam group heal. This of course affects WP/DoK more because they excel at group healing. While the others have powerful ranged single target heals that be spread to the warband. 6v6 is definitely blurred quite a bit in a Warband.

[Azarael]

DoK/WP being more than viable healers did not stop you from focusing on their Hybrid mastery either. To me the discussion also remained fairly civil and nobody argued that the hybrid spec is not needed. My point is that fixing heal AM first also buffs hybrid and we can then go from there, rather than buffing a hybrid playstyle only to then buff heal AM and having to roll back on hybrid changes.

The only reason that worked is because the spec in question (Grace with 2h) is completely distinct from the meta spec used by WP (Salvation with 1h + book). In the case of hybrid AM, it is not possible to create a hybrid spec using the mechanic that incorporates both sides of the class without automatically buffing both sides through increasing their options.

I actually believe that hybrid classes can viable. However I also think that hybrid classes have a massive advantage to non-healing classes due to their sustain, which is crucial in zerg v zerg, keepdefense, 1on1 and PvE. Although non of these should be the main focus of balance, I don't think these elements should be ignored. One way to go about it is to give really solid utility to the hybrids. We're talking about groupcleanse kind of utility.

The focus of balance is PvP for me, so I don't mind about PvE. 1on1 as aforesaid will be accomodated where possible but it will not be allowed to factor into balance. ZvZ and keep defenses cause imbalance between a wide range of classes and specs, which we're already seeing.