Overarching balance changes

[Annaise16]

They argued long and hard that RP could be tankier and harder to kill than the WP. And yet I just watched their 6v6 against CCM, and Gankbus clearly targeted the RP first and killed him in under 3 seconds in both fights. If they believed what they said and weren't just trying to con us, why didn't they target the WP first? Why did they find it so easy to kill the incredibly "tanky" RP?

PS. And it isn't subjective unless you are arguing that a 10% block strikethrough is as good as a 10% parry bonus. Is that what you believe?

I we believed what we say we would have played with a rp in our order main group.
Oh wait, we did.

Good rp still can be tankier than a wp.

It comes down to you not having any useful 6vs6 experience I guess.

And we played on both sides, contrary to lots of other people who like to voice their opinions on balance matters. Do you really think we wanted buffs for our advantage? Worst case we just switched them out...

The RP died before he could cast Rune of Regeneration on himself. So he had no chance of getting the armor proc. He also died before he could get a Blessing of Grungni proc on himself. So those tactics were no help in that situation.

And that was my point. To get the tankiness, the RP has to give up two tactic slots, only one of which is guaranteed to help when needed. And two tactic slots on armor means the RP has to give up one or two tactics that would have improved healing. The WP doesn't have to make that sacrifice to get their armor.

PS. I watched quite a few of the CCM videos and it was also interesting to note that the WP in CCM out-healed the RP by between 30 and 90% in every scen where the scoreboard was shown. So I don't think it could be argued that WP's healing suffered in comparison to the RP. Of course, the rP brings some useful group buffs that the WP can't provide and their cleansing is a little different. But it's hard to see why a backline WP should have all that extra armor when compared to the cloth healers.

[sanii]

I just did a comparison of the damage increase for a WH vs a BW between renown ranks 45 and 100.

Pls enlighten me in your actual methodology(numbers,% and calculations) and builds you used to achive such a comparison, as i am obviously ignorant.

The RP died before he could cast Rune of Regeneration on himself. So he had no chance of getting the armor proc. He also died before he could get a Blessing of Grungni proc on himself. So those tactics were no help in that situation.

Could anyone link me this video , cause this sounds either like the RP misplayed , was wrongly geared or his tank was slack.

[Landaren]

Naturally I'll choose cleanse, as that single ability alone effectively renders several classes to useless levels.

Cleanse renders what classes useless?

Let me give you an example.
Group 1
Magus, Sorc, Chosen, BG, DoK, DoK
Not a great group make up but it can work

VS
Slay, Slay, Kotb, Kotb, WP, WP
Considered OP by every destro player on earth

In the above example what party will be capable of removing debuffs effectively?
Both parties have healers that counter the DPS's debuffs.

Now lets change things around a little for destro.

Marauder, WE, Chosen, BO, Dok Dok
VS same order premade
Now what team is more effective in the meta?

Suddenly, order cannot remove any snares, nor can they remove any healing debuffs. Destro will have the edge here with CC and debuff removal, pressure wont be applied by the slayers because the WP wont be able to keep up with the damage output from destro forcing them to either withdraw or slowly die.

What I would say about cleanse is that it's actually a crappy ability that is over performing in some situation, and useless in others.

[Penril]

Cleanse renders what classes useless?

Let me give you an example.
Group 1
Magus, Sorc, Chosen, BG, DoK, DoK
Not a great group make up but it can work

VS
Slay, Slay, Kotb, Kotb, WP, WP
Considered OP by every destro player on earth

In the above example what party will be capable of removing debuffs effectively?
Both parties have healers that counter the DPS's debuffs.

Now lets change things around a little for destro.

Marauder, WE, Chosen, BO, Dok Dok
VS same order premade
Now what team is more effective in the meta?

Suddenly, order cannot remove any snares, nor can they remove any healing debuffs. Destro will have the edge here with CC and debuff removal, pressure wont be applied by the slayers because the WP wont be able to keep up with the damage output from destro forcing them to either withdraw or slowly die.

What I would say about cleanse is that it's actually a crappy ability that is over performing in some situation, and useless in others.

You are tyring to justify imbalance by using another imbalance as an example (Destro has 3 Ailment inc healdebuffs, while order has one crappy 25% curse one on DPS WP).

In other words: "it is ok if group cleanse makes Magus useless, because WP can't cleanse Mara or WE". Bad logic is bad.

[Jaycub]

Most order groups I think run WP/RP, but is it even worth using the GCD on the RP for a single cleanse?

Mara literally shits out crappy ailments that it doesn't care if they get removed, BO is constantly throwing out the str debuff ailment, chosen has crippling strikes... what I am getting at is there is a ton of cover being thrown around.

I don't play healers in any competitive fashion, so forgive my ignorance... but it just seems fruitless to try and grab a worthless cleanse on something when you have to wade through so much **** to get to it. Esp against the destro comps when their tanks have multiple AoE debuffs, and mara is like the king of debuffs. I'm not saying order can't bury stuff deep either, it just seems easier on destro.

@penril: posted this before i saw your response, I guess it still works in response in that group cleanse is extremely important and when one side has a group cleanse that removes more important debuffs in comparison it creates situations that are shitty for order as landaren posted in his example. Those situations being people running the meta groups (group cleanse being a big factor of why they are meta).

[roadkillrobin]

Dirty tricks Healcrit + Heal increase aura + heal increase on defended attack kinda makes up for WP not being able to cleanse alot of debuffs.

[Jaycub]

Dirty tricks Healcrit + Heal increase aura + heal increase on defended attack kinda makes up for WP not being able to cleanse alot of debuffs.

chosen having morale pump, core aoe wounds debuff, and crippling strikes, on top of superior damage to the kotbs doesn't leave them far off. Take away one of the crit tactics and knight and chosen are on par imo.... anymore of a nerf to knight and you reign in the double SM meta lol.

[Annaise16]

I just did a comparison of the damage increase for a WH vs a BW between renown ranks 45 and 100.

Pls enlighten me in your actual methodology(numbers,% and calculations) and builds you used to achive such a comparison, as i am obviously ignorant.

The RP died before he could cast Rune of Regeneration on himself. So he had no chance of getting the armor proc. He also died before he could get a Blessing of Grungni proc on himself. So those tactics were no help in that situation.

Could anyone link me this video , cause this sounds either like the RP misplayed , was wrongly geared or his tank was slack.

With regard to the first topic, when the game is available;
1. Log onto different toons and visit the career trainer.
2. Swap out pieces of gear with your main stat to see how your main stat and your target's toughness effect damage. 3. Alter the number of mastery points in each tree to see how ability level alters damage.
4. Use this data to derive the formula used to calculate damage for each ability.
5. Go to the Arsenal of War website to see the stats for the relevant gear.
6. Recall the damage bonuses you had on your toons at different renown ranks and in different gear sets.
7. Put all of this together to make the comparisons.

I have previously worked out the damage formulas for WH and BW, so I was able to skip a couple steps. But you should work them out for yourself. It will be good practice if you want to make the comparisons you mentioned.

With regard to the CCM videos. Just search for them on youtube using warhammer CCM. The scen I mentioned was, I think, the only 6v6 in which the RP died. So they seemed to have a fair idea of what they were doing.

[sanii]

With regard to the first topic, when the game is available;
1. Log onto different toons and visit the career trainer.
2. Swap out pieces of gear with your main stat to see how your main stat and your target's toughness effect damage. 3. Alter the number of mastery points in each tree to see how ability level alters damage.
4. Use this data to derive the formulae used to calculate damage for each ability.
5. Go to the Arsenal of War website to see the stats for the relevant gear.
6. Recall the damage bonuses you had on your toons at different renown ranks and in different gear sets.
7. Put all of this together to make the comparisons.

So essentially what you are saying is that a WH will have a 40-45% damage increase and BW will have a 35-40% damage increase WITHOUT including Auto attacks and any modifiers aye ? (From your methodology that is - and a MAIN POINT of my argument)

With regard to the CCM videos. Just search for them on youtube using warhammer CCM. The scen I mentioned was, I think, the only 6v6 in which the RP died. So they seemed to have a fair idea of what they were doing.

The only videos i see are from lvl 35 ? And even then you wouldn't pop like that. And as far as RP at 40 without having ol' WB or access to both incoming and outgoing healdebuff it ain't a very smart idea to start/go for the RP.

[roadkillrobin]

Dirty tricks Healcrit + Heal increase aura + heal increase on defended attack kinda makes up for WP not being able to cleanse alot of debuffs.

chosen having morale pump, core aoe wounds debuff, and crippling strikes, on top of superior damage to the kotbs doesn't leave them far off. Take away one of the crit tactics and knight and chosen are on par imo.... anymore of a nerf to knight and you reign in the double SM meta lol.

Was trying to make a point why double WP is just as viable as double DoK even tho WP cleansing are sigificant
worse. Even tho they can't cleanse some nasty healdebuffs they arn't as affected by them coz of the stacking heal increase buffs they get.