[Discussion/Feedback] The Armor Project

[sanii]

6v6 doesn't play the same as 24v24 or RVRvsRVR so impossible to ballance this game for multtiple formats when all skills, morales and tactic is open to get all the time. Something thats broken in small scale is prefectly fine and might even be underpeforming in large scale. And thats completly true for this game. Proc meta completly fine in large scale, destroyed everyone in small scale and after changes completly useless in large scale and made several tactics and warband builds useless. So thats what you get when you trying to ballance for multiple formats at the same timme. It doesn't work with this system. So sadly one format most come first in prioroty when doing ballance.

Well at least we can make an effort to balance out things, that utterly break the balance of either one of those.

Examples of things that broke either of the balances and were removed/changed include Proc's for smallscale , AoE experimental changes for largescale , ex. Lifetap meleehealing being broken when it works(usually smallscale), Keg (with one of the bigest arguments being keep sieges) and hopefully casted lifetap's soon

As far as the impact of balancing of armor it is far more likely it could break something in smallscale/scens then in largescale ( considering that there is a lot more magic/morale dmg flying around and hp rises in value compared to armor )

[th3gatekeeper]

6v6 doesn't play the same as 24v24 or RVRvsRVR so impossible to ballance this game for multtiple formats when all skills, morales and tactic is open to get all the time. Something thats broken in small scale is prefectly fine and might even be underpeforming in large scale. And thats completly true for this game. Proc meta completly fine in large scale, destroyed everyone in small scale and after changes completly useless in large scale and made several tactics and warband builds useless. So thats what you get when you trying to ballance for multiple formats at the same timme. It doesn't work with this system. So sadly one format most come first in prioroty when doing ballance.

Well at least we can make an effort to balance out things, that utterly break the balance of either one of those.

Examples of things that broke either of the balances and were removed/changed include Proc's for smallscale , AoE experimental changes for largescale , ex. Lifetap meleehealing being broken when it works(usually smallscale), Keg (with one of the bigest arguments being keep sieges) and hopefully casted lifetap's soon

As far as the impact of balancing of armor it is far more likely it could break something in smallscale/scens then in largescale ( considering that there is a lot more magic/morale dmg flying around and hp rises in value compared to armor )

You are a forum warrior man! Haha, why I say that is you were able to take an off topic spiral and turn it right back around to my OP!

This is very true. In large scale RVR. Armor isnt OP. Largely because of the Magic RDPS as well as morales not being impacted by things like armor. That, and... well the "proposal" I offered didnt change much so it wouldnt change a TON in RVR... People already can "die in 2 GCDs" where as it IS overperforming in SCs.

So yeah, this is true. People stack HP due to morale damage and it being the only "negator" to that....

[Tesq]

gona tell a shocking news everyone, sc are clary st based and mass scale rvr is cleary aoe based

Every class have and should have both ......so balance st for small scale and balance aoe for big scale. (first problem not all class have a real aoe spec, scond problem some classes not even a good st spec aka magus engi due the kiting which mean kiting gone too far or they should be more versatile in what they do.)

That would make everyone happy. BTW stack anti crit right now best way to lower dmg.

[roadkillrobin]

gona tell a shocking news everyone, sc are clary st based and mass scale rvr is cleary aoe based

Every class have and should have both ......so balance st for small scale and balance aoe for big scale. (first problem not all class have a real aoe spec, scond problem some classes not even a good st spec aka magus engi due the kiting which mean kiting gone too far or they should be more versatile in what they do.)

That would make everyone happy. BTW stack anti crit right now best way to lower dmg.

Yeah but theres tons of **** that affects both. Proc was one thing and morales another. Proc change was just wrongly implemented imo. Should be changed so they can only trigger on abillity dmg. The ICD jusst killed the tactics for em and forced those classes closer to one spec option.
Morales that does 1200 AoE dmg almoast no effect in SC while some argue that Immaculate Defence every 60 cd is busted. And then in large scale it 's opposite.

As for anti crit stacking. Im just talking about Initiative here. Once you get it past 300 it just becomes massivly overly expensive for what it does. My problem with it is more to do with the cheap crit stacking. Crit should serve a spec/playstyle were you need to sacrifice equall vallue of Str/BS/Int to be able to get it to the hights that are really easy to get on RoR. You can basicly max out those stats and and crit and still have points over to get other stuff. Its just not how crit is intended to be used in this game.

[Tesq]

well cheap crit stacking is countered by very cheap anti crit

same cost crit % max value for 45 renown is 14% while anti crit is 24%

not say is totally fine, just saying well the anti crit is very cheap, can both get you crit on 0 and also remove a good part of the enemy crit.

theorically melee are those which the crit is lower, with no warpforged procs goign full anti crit could make you basically out of crits from melee assuming you can have a 0 and then -20% crit
At that point toughness became as good as armor due the fact which work vs anything and due alredy removing a very large part of multiplers on a lot of classes maybe this would be still not enough on mara cuz both armor penetration and crit tactics (still you need to crit for proc the second so no chance to crit = uselss tactic..make 2 with the increase crit dmg one).

It's really extreme but if most of classes cannot crit you then you are immortal even under heal debuff, you simple remove too many multiplers alltogheter the only way to crit you would bring some initiative debuff on the table at that point.

[footpatrol2]

There is nothing wrong with the armor value's.
There is nothing wrong with cloth classes being able to get high armor.

There was a Massive defensive morale cycle nerf that occurred in this game already which was conducted by mythic. It all happened right after mark jacobs left the project.

Personally I feel that after mark jacobs left the project the new design direction mythic took was poop.

[roadkillrobin]

well cheap crit stacking is countered by very cheap anti crit

same cost crit % max value for 45 renown is 14% while anti crit is 24%

not say is totally fine, just saying well the anti crit is very cheap, can both get you crit on 0 and also remove a good part of the enemy crit.

theorically melee are those which the crit is lower, with no warpforged procs goign full anti crit could make you basically out of crits from melee assuming you can have a 0 and then -20% crit
At that point toughness became as good as armor due the fact which work vs anything and due alredy removing a very large part of multiplers on a lot of classes maybe this would be still not enough on mara cuz both armor penetration and crit tactics (still you need to crit for proc the second so no chance to crit = uselss tactic..make 2 with the increase crit dmg one).

It's really extreme but if most of classes cannot crit you then you are immortal even under heal debuff, you simple remove too many multiplers alltogheter the only way to crit you would bring some initiative debuff on the table at that point.

The crit mechanics were designed so that you were always atleast 10% chance to be crit and others to gave a max of around 20 from gear and tactics on a constant. Now you can reach those 2O with just gear and renown only wich gives alot more headroom to get even more crit or minmaxing other stats that you shouldn't be able to get. And this is why armor/resistance wich is the only constant reduction is used. People able to get way to much main stat and crit and arp in the same build. The dmg is just to high to get the other stats. Remember that any crit reduction bellow 0 only have effect on debuffs. (wasn't the case on live). Wich give crit reduction a headroom of 0-20 (if really low initiative) While crit stacking doesn't have a cap at all.

A build based on crit and arp should be lacking in dps bonus. A build based on dps bonus should be lacking in arp and crit. Thats why toughness capped at dps bonus on live. It was the design of the Mastery trees. Good at armor pen. Or good at low toughness killing. Not both. Wich is the game we have now.

[footpatrol2]

The crit mechanics were designed so that you were always atleast 10% chance to be crit and others to gave a max of around 20 from gear and tactics on a constant.

I just want to throw in banners. I think its 15% additional armor or resists. 6% additional crit reduction and 6% additional crit chance you could have gotten with banners also. 15% additional offensive stat's 15% additional defensive stats. Banners are part of the overall balance.

[Bozzax]

Remember that any crit reduction bellow 0 only have effect on debuffs. (wasn't the case on live). Wich give crit reduction a headroom of 0-20 (if really low initiative) While crit stacking doesn't have a cap at all.

critical hit rates are affected by defenders initiative vs attackers rank, in the following way:
(7.5*<attacker effective rank>+50)/<defender initiative>/10

you then add any crit chance modifiers from the attacker, and subtract any crit chance reduction the defender has:
((7.5*<attacker effective rank>+50)/<defender initiative>/10)+(<attacker crit bonus> - <defender crit reduction>)

I'd expect <defender crit reduction> to "eat" from both base crits and <attacker crit bonus> are you saying it don't?

Anyone tested it?

[roadkillrobin]

Its been discussed several times on this forum in past and those times it's ended with that crit reduction caps at 0 and that anything lower then that only have effects on debuffs. Crit reduction isn't a formula as far as i know. And tbh, the game wouldn't work if crit reduction was able be pushed so low that you literary can't be crit coz that aswell have a negative impact on specs/playstyle.
But I havn't tested it troughly no.

But what Im saying is that offensive and healing crits are probobly in the realm of 10-15% to high atm. And both offensive, healing and crit reduction from renown should be much harder limited then it is. Example, you should have to spend around 40 renown into a secondndary stat to be able to unlock crit in the first place. WS for melee/ranged crit. WP for Magic crit, Int for Healing crit. I would also seriusly looking into giving toughness a secondary effect, giving it a chance to Parry, Disrupt and Dodge in the same manner as all secondary stats. And then returning toughness to a dps bonus reducer instead of a pure dps reducer, so that arp builds can function properly.