Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

[live4treasure]

I actually like wargrimnir's idea of giving strikethrough to willpower and disrupt over to initiative, this opens up more interesting builds, but I'm worried that zealots and runepriests will become OP with their aoe debuffs and heals. They'll simply far outpreform any other healer in rvr and make dps zealots and runepriests entirely obsolete.

Maybe we could just like give all casters a base 5-10% strikethrough and halve the amount of disrupt granted by willpower. This won't effect bright wizards much, because I know for example Theoddone just doesn't even bother with Deft Defender for rvr because of instant cast undefendable fireballs, and having more strikethrough just means less of that, but help struggling classes like sorcerer and magus, while also providing healers with a nice bonus so that perhaps their debuffs and cc has a higher chance to land on the target

[Pacso]

Crazy thoughts. Go nuts they said.

Initiative now does
+ dodge and disrupt avoidance
+ crit reduction
+ stealth stuff
D

I like the idea, but with this you should balance the base initiative and the initiative gain by lvl for all classes.

[Pacso]

Current mechanic's are fine.

If anything split up deft defender so you don't get both dodge and disrupt with a single renown point buy of deft defender.

Example:
Make deft defender only increase disrupt at the current rates but not dodge.
Make trivial blows (<--- only because it is unused atm, could be anything...) increase dodge at the (old) deft defender rate.

Right now it costs 20 renown points to increase your dodge and disrupt by 18%. It is full protection against ranged.

By splitting up disrupt AND dodge from deft defender your effectively making it so it will cost double the renown points to get the same effect.

Old (current) system
20 renown points of deft defender gives = 18% dodge and disrupt
Total renown spent old (current) system = 20 points

Under new suggested system
20 renown points of deft defender gives = 18% disrupt
20 renown points of (insert name(trivial blows)) gives = 18% dodge
Total renown spent new system = 40 renown points

Btw... this is how it used to be under the old renown rank system.

What I'm suggesting is a rollback and it is a easier pill for the community to swallow and won't be a shock to the community so you'll have diminished population swings in transition.

With this changes the order would be in better position. Destro can bring 4 magical and 1 physical rdps, order can bring 3 magical and 2 physical. So an order player should stack disrupt and "avoid" squig herders, but a destro player should stack both, or the engies and sw-s will be painful.

[live4treasure]

Sepparating dodge and disrupt in renown accomplishes nothing, it'll just be a buff to engineers, squig herders and shadow warriors, because regardless of what those classes can do, you always want to have bright wizard and sorcerer do less damage to you

[wonshot]

If the initial problem was mainly BW and Sorc damage output due to their strong class mechanics, and this distrupt change ended up hurting all of the magic classes. Why not shift the power from Deft defender to Trivial Blows? Deft defender is imo too cheap for how good and easy it is. And if the main core issue was BW and Sorc crit routations, make Trival Blows the new hot thing to stack with no counters.

It would maybe hurt the too many of the other dps classes, and raise the Time To Kill factor. But atleast Crowdcontrol effects would stick when used by Casters, an other issue with the current ballance of spells connecting.

Or make spells connect more via lowering the crazyhigh %distrupt chance people are running, either via caps, higher cost on Deftdefender, willpower distrupt scaling. And when that is done, take a look at resistences and their damage reduction. Improve resist buffs/auras, raise caps and shift the ballancing over to an area where Crowcontrol atleast connects and the core issue of bust magic damage is handled via tuneing the damage, and not the chance to do the damage routation.

[AxelF]

Diminishing returns on disrupt from WP kick in earlier.

Adjust diminishing returns from WP so that ~700 WP and full deft defender gives about 40% disrupt chance or whatever devs feel is appropriate.

People are trying to use a thermonuclear warhead to crack a nut.

All of the complaints I see are from casters complaining they can't land spells on healers, all of these ridiculously complicated proposals will just break another 20 unforseen things. Keep it simple.

Let's also keep things factual though please, most healers sit at about 50-60% disrupt - I appreciate casters want to exaggerate the situation to improve their lot, but claims like 'all healers can easily reach 80% disrupt' just make people ignore you.

[saupreusse]

Just thinking. Instead of playing around with renown abilities to cover up the "initial problem" of bw sorcs critheavy rotations, wouldnt it be better trying to fix this problem at its root and thinking about a different mechanic for those casters? While toning down the effect of willpower on disrupt. @wonshot

[live4treasure]

If the initial problem was mainly BW and Sorc damage output due to their strong class mechanics, and this distrupt change ended up hurting all of the magic classes. Why not shift the power from Deft defender to Trivial Blows? Deft defender is imo too cheap for how good and easy it is. And if the main core issue was BW and Sorc crit routations, make Trival Blows the new hot thing to stack with no counters.

It would maybe hurt the too many of the other dps classes, and raise the Time To Kill factor. But atleast Crowdcontrol effects would stick when used by Casters, an other issue with the current ballance of spells connecting.

Or make spells connect more via lowering the crazyhigh %distrupt chance people are running, either via caps, higher cost on Deftdefender, willpower distrupt scaling. And when that is done, take a look at resistences and their damage reduction. Improve resist buffs/auras, raise caps and shift the ballancing over to an area where Crowcontrol atleast connects and the core issue of bust magic damage is handled via tuneing the damage, and not the chance to do the damage routation.

This will basically make the game worse in general, not specifically sorcs and bw. Not a good solution, imo

[catholicism198]

Just thinking. Instead of playing around with renown abilities to cover up the "initial problem" of bw sorcs critheavy rotations, wouldnt it be better trying to fix this problem at its root and thinking about a different mechanic for those casters? While toning down the effect of willpower on disrupt. @wonshot

If you're referring to BWs and Sorcs... there was already a thread about it where Torque said he wanted to create a stacking wounds debuff for BWs/Sorcs that stay at 100. I don't know what came of it though- I stopped following it after a bit. Maybe he's waiting for client control.......

I like the idea of adding a Pierce Defense type effect to a tactic, for magic careers (shaman/Archmage/magus/others,) that reduces a targets disrupt chance when one of your spells gets disrupted. Seems to work for physical rdps.

[Aurandilaz]

You do realize that there exist "group" gameplay conditions in which hostile target of BW/Sorc rotations have
-Guard
-Resistance buffs
-Cleansing
-possible LoS protection
-preHoTs
-Pots
-360cone for Disrupts
-HoldTheLine

Let's assume a typical Chillwind+WordOfPain+ArcticBlast+Gloomburst+ImpendingDoom Single Target rotations.
On weak target with low resis you hit maybe 7000 assuming all kinda lands. On mediocre target with some defences maybe 6000. On medium target with good resis, maybe now just 5000. On harder target with still decent avoidance of something missing and proper resis, down to 4000.
Then you add stuff like Challenge for -30% dmg. Or detaunt, -50% dmg. Or Guard, where target gets only 50% of incoming dmg and other can be parried/blocked by tank.
That typical rotation requires you to be around 60-100 feet and hope that the target doesn't break LoS. And you pray that the 70-90% of the rotations lands, otherwise it more often than enough just spooks the enemy instead of actually sealing the deal and killing them.

It's pretty damn easy to counter BW or Sorc already if you know how to play with a proper party where the healers have healing abilities slotted in their hotbars and the targets by themselves know to make distance to BW/Sorc and break LoS and have their own healthpots.

How many """"competitive"""" 6mans do run BW/Sorc when they fight other 6mans that mostly include meleetrain setups? No clue, probably not many because of how weak a magical caster with long unreliable cast times and weak mobility are.

But can a 6man run Sorc/BW and farm pugs? Oh absolutely. Because the said pugs don't have enough healers, don't have enough tanks and don't probably even have BuffHead and are clueless too damn often about how the basic ST rotation even works.
But should BW/Sorc be balanced around how effective they are at farming unorganized low heal low tank pug masses? Nope
If you want to balance the game around how effective a class is at performing mechanized farming operations against a sea of unorganized lowbies, then for sure both BW and Sorc need massive nerfs. But if the balance aims at 6man/fullParty scale or warband scale, then for smallscale you need some real rework to the class so they stop being catfood or target practice for good meleetrains and even in warband scale it would be nice if you actually were able to cast spells that require targets whilst taking AoE hits from 10-20 different sources, suffering setbacks and trying to find proper target with 20 people in 10 feet radius of you.