[Marauder change] patch notes discussion (28/03/20)

[Likeaboss]

i simply just cant stand the bullshit of pen&paper theorists about marauders in brute.
One proper style of brute marauder is:
1) you MUST waiting till Order ranks is broken,
2) you MUST find Order below 50% of health,
3) use charge, absorb potion, Convulsive Slashing, Debilitate, and on 1% enemies health- GUILLOTINE!
4) use Flee to back line of destro,
5) wait 10 second and repeat.
ofc You can use these "utilities" and die in every battle , You choose

I don't get what you try to say... Do you play like this^^ and wondering why you always die?

[Sofong]

i simply just cant stand the bullshit of pen&paper theorists about marauders in brute.
One proper style of brute marauder is:
1) you MUST waiting till Order ranks is broken,
2) you MUST find Order below 50% of health,
3) use charge, absorb potion, Convulsive Slashing, Debilitate, and on 1% enemies health- GUILLOTINE!
4) use Flee to back line of destro,
5) wait 10 second and repeat.
ofc You can use these "utilities" and die in every battle , You choose

they talk like mara is can just like wl pounce>fo>cs>ctw, garantee a kill on 50% hp target..... forum is full of this type of bias theorists, they have no idea how the class actually works.

[nat3s]

Spoiler:

I have 2 main issues with the Mara design on RoR:

1. The stance dancing makes for a higher skillcap class. Bit like feral druids around 2010 in WoW (stay with me here - you dont need to know about old WoW expansions). The big diff between the 2 is design philosophy... in WoW feral was rewarded with the highest dps for its high skill cap. Average players did average dps, exceptionally players did exceptionally dps. In RoR, the Mara does **** dps for its high skill cap which makes for a clunky and unpopular class imo. Why roll a mara when you can go aSW, WL, Slayer and shred people far easier... The answer there of course was maras provided a key role in their morale drain, or did until these changes.

2. People misunderstand how PSM works, the dmg buffs are fairly insigificant and Maras damage is pretty mediocre when compared to other classes, WL, aSW, Slayer all burst far harder. Mara can do some nice fluff dmg in WB play, capable of being near the top on dmg done in a city siege, but with 3-4 DBs compared to BWs 25-50. These changes mean Order continues to have the more favorable mirror match ups, but destro has now lost their morale advantage, which for organised WB play will allow Order to dominate going forward.

When you consider Order are already dominating in terms of rvr zone locks, altdorf vs IC sieges and t2-4 scenario play, it seems odd to nerf destros WB morale play. Really not seeing the incentive to roll anything but Order right now... And that's a problem with their current overpop.

You should play both realms, then we would not have to read a Order is better than Destro Post,
full of wrong arguments and tears.
Order Overpop? which Timezone you play in? NA? cuz EU its different everyday.

I do play both realms and in my judgement Order has the superior mirror match ups and WB stats post these Mara changes. The P&P post (one of the better destro guilds I rolled with for quite a while) explained it well. Feel free to explain why you disagree.
Wrong arguments and tears? Again, feel free to elaborate where you disagree and we can have a conversation "you're wrong because I said so" makes for a pretty weak argument.
I play EU prime

[Dajciekrwi]

i simply just cant stand the bullshit of pen&paper theorists about marauders in brute.
One proper style of brute marauder is:
1) you MUST waiting till Order ranks is broken,
2) you MUST find Order below 50% of health,
3) use charge, absorb potion, Convulsive Slashing, Debilitate, and on 1% enemies health- GUILLOTINE!
4) use Flee to back line of destro,
5) wait 10 second and repeat.
ofc You can use these "utilities" and die in every battle , You choose

I don't get what you try to say... Do you play like this^^ and wondering why you always die?

Try to remember "IDAJCIEKRWI" nick a and i show You some moves bro its hard to
denounce when You not a polish but i trust You will recognize me soon:)

[R3xz]

i simply just cant stand the bullshit of pen&paper theorists about marauders in brute.
One proper style of brute marauder is:
1) you MUST waiting till Order ranks is broken,
2) you MUST find Order below 50% of health,
3) use charge, absorb potion, Convulsive Slashing, Debilitate, and on 1% enemies health- GUILLOTINE!
4) use Flee to back line of destro,
5) wait 10 second and repeat.
ofc You can use these "utilities" and die in every battle , You choose

I don't get what you try to say... Do you play like this^^ and wondering why you always die?

I think they were trying to be sarcastic :/

Anyway, as the original creator of this thread, I think the posts in the last few pages has derailed a bit from the original topic, which is to focus on the patch notes.
Pls don't use this thread to cry/QQ about nerf, troll, argue about imbalance, or turn it into your personal "my Marauder suggestion/buff idea" thread. At the very least it should pertain to the recent changes on Marauder; this is NOT a general Marauder class discussion topic, I wanna hear what you think about the changes, not just discuss your view of what you think a Marauder should be or what you personally want buffed.

Brownie points to posts with:

• relevancy to the changes in the patch notes
• empirical testing (I wanna see more numbers, dammit)
• your own conclusion after some hard FACTS

[Likeaboss]

Small buff on damage, therefor a nerf on Moraldrain. Sounds fair for me, cuz i never run Monstro spec.

[Foofmonger]

i simply just cant stand the bullshit of pen&paper theorists about marauders in brute.
One proper style of brute marauder is:
1) you MUST waiting till Order ranks is broken,
2) you MUST find Order below 50% of health,
3) use charge, absorb potion, Convulsive Slashing, Debilitate, and on 1% enemies health- GUILLOTINE!
4) use Flee to back line of destro,
5) wait 10 second and repeat.
ofc You can use these "utilities" and die in every battle , You choose

I don't get what you try to say... Do you play like this^^ and wondering why you always die?

I think they were trying to be sarcastic :/

Anyway, as the original creator of this thread, I think the posts in the last few pages has derailed a bit from the original topic, which is to focus on the patch notes.
Pls don't use this thread to cry/QQ about nerf, troll, argue about imbalance, or turn it into your personal "my Marauder suggestion/buff idea" thread. At the very least it should pertain to the recent changes on Marauder; this is NOT a general Marauder class discussion topic, I wanna hear what you think about the changes, not just discuss your view of what you think a Marauder should be or what you personally want buffed.

Brownie points to posts with:

• relevancy to the changes in the patch notes
• empirical testing (I wanna see more numbers, dammit)
• your own conclusion after some hard FACTS

I did a bunch of dummy testing earlier in the week but I didn't record all the numbers down. What do you want to see? Before/After damage numbers?

[R3xz]

I did a bunch of dummy testing earlier in the week but I didn't record all the numbers down. What do you want to see? Before/After damage numbers?

That could be a good start. How about morale drain proc/stoppage uptime now compare to how it used to be.

People complain nerf, well how much was it nerfed by? What are the parameters we need to look at to judge the nerf on an objective basis?

The damage buff is pretty straight forward to test out, but the morale drain change isn't, but I'm sure we can crunch some numbers at least theoretically.

I was hoping that the thread would answer some of these questions and conclusions can be made based on the numbers, not just feelings.

[Foofmonger]

I did a bunch of dummy testing earlier in the week but I didn't record all the numbers down. What do you want to see? Before/After damage numbers?

That could be a good start. How about morale drain proc/stoppage uptime now compare to how it used to be.

People complain nerf, well how much was it nerfed by? What are the parameters we need to look at to judge the nerf on an objective basis?

The damage buff is pretty straight forward to test out, but the morale drain change isn't, but I'm sure we can crunch some numbers at least theoretically.

I was hoping that the thread would answer some of these questions and conclusions can be made based on the numbers, not just feelings.

So sure, assuming everything works this isn't too hard.

Old Morale Drain: 25% chance on hit to remove 225 morale.
Old Morale Prevent: 100% chance to prevent morale for 5 seconds, every 10 seconds (50% uptime, but it didn't work).

New Morale Drain: 100% chance to remove 225 morale, once every 10 seconds.
New Morale Prevent: 10% chance on hit to prevent enemy from gaining morale for 5 seconds.

Old State: You can drain morale as often as you hit, and as often as you proc. Assuming let's go with Demo Spam (for ease of calculation, of course wrecking ball would be more effective), you have a 25% chance every 1.5 seconds to remove 225 morale from X people that you hit. This means on average, to remove morale from a person (by demo spamming) you will remove 225 morale every 6 seconds from an individual target (4x Demolitions). The morale prevent didn't work, so you couldn't prevent morale.

New State: You can prevent morale as often as you hit, and as often as you proc. Assuming let's go with Demo Spam (for each of calculation, of course wrecking ball would be more effective), you have a 10% chance every 1.5 seconds to prevent the enemy from gaining morale for 5 seconds. This means on average, to prevent morale gain on a person (by demo spamming) you will proc the 5 second morale prevention, every 15 seconds on an individual target (10x Demolitions). The morale drain now drains 225 morale (guaranteed), once every 10 seconds (no average).

Summary (using Demo Spam):

OLD: 225 Morale Drained every 6 seconds on average (could be higher or lower depending on procs).

NEW: 225 Morale Drained every 10 seconds - guaranteed (will not fluctuate). Morale generation prevented every 5 out of 15 seconds on average (could be higher or lower depending on procs).

Morale drain is nerfed (and I used demo), by at least 40%. In cases where you are using wrecking ball, it's nerfed quite more heavily. You will drain a considerable less morale then you used to. However, your morale drain is now on demand and reliable, and you will always drain 225 every 10 seconds (as long as you hit WoT when its cooldown is up)

Morale prevent is massively increased, by it's entirety because it didn't work. Now you can theoretically prevent groups from gaining morale for rougly about 33% uptime, which will effectively reduce their overall morale gain by that same percentage (could be higher or lower depending on procs, as well as using wrecking ball which ups the prercnt to proc signifcantly)

TOTALS:

OLD: 225 Morale Drained every 6 sections on individual targets on average (using demo spam). Over the course of 1 minute, the Marauder would drain on average: 2,250 Morale

NEW: 225 Morale drained every 10 seconds on individual targets (guaranteed with WoT). 33% average uptime on morale prevention. Over the course of 1 minute, the Marauder would drain on average: 1,350 morale, and stop the enemy from generating morale for 20 out of those 60 seconds (33% reduction in morale generation).

DIFFERENCE:

The Marauder has a net difference of 900 morale drained as the "nerf" over the average course of 1 minute (depending on wreckinball use will change this number). However, the Marauder also gains 20 seconds of that minute of preventing any morale gain. Therefore, if Order's Morale generation is higher than 900 over a course of 20 seconds, this change is actually a buff. If Orders Morale generation is lower than 900 of a course of 20 seconds, this change is a nerf. The actual amount of difference would indicate how large that nerf or buff is. For instance, if the Order is only generating 600 morale in 20 seconds, this is a 300 morale nerf. If Order is generating 1200 morale in 20 seconds, this is a 300 morale buff.

TLDR: Morale drain still works. It's more of a functionality change than a nerf, but also now requires a specific spec (Brut/Monstro), so thats a nerf in terms of overall viability (you can't really go Sav/Monstro anymore and do the AP drain and the morale drain at the same time). As per the actual amount of morale usage prevented, this could actually be a buff for Marauder, but it's variable based on how much morale the Order you are fighting is capable of generating. This change actually makes fighting against stronger groups who optimize their morale gain better, whereas it's more a nerf versus unoptimized Order players who are not maximizing their morale gain.

[R3xz]

^Isn't the morale stopper only a 10% chance to proc? Based on patch notes.

Thanks for the writeup btw, this is why I much prefer to discuss balance and class changes with numbers. Objective statements with empirical elements are less likely to spark emotional and subjective backlashes, and if it doesn't add up, someone will point out the problem in the equation.