AM/Shammy Healing

[roadkillrobin]

If you change WP primary spec to be Grace and DoK to Sacrifice, while AM and Shammy being Ranged Hybrids, people are just gonna go with 2 X RP/Zealot instead.

[bloodi]

If you change WP primary spec to be Grace and DoK to Sacrifice, while AM and Shammy being Ranged Hybrids, people are just gonna go with 2 X RP/Zealot instead.

Dont forget about riots, people marrying their pets and the end of what we now know as civilization.

[Azarael]

1) I don't intend to change the primary spec for WP/DoK, because that would be imbalanced. There shouldn't BE a primary spec.

2) I don't intend to oversee any kind of modifications which will make 2x RP/Zealot the meta, because that would be imbalanced.

What some people fail to see is that the game can be rigged such that the off-contribution from a hybrid class, or its synergy with select other classes where applicable, can make it more valuable than a pure - /if/ the game is correctly designed. Warhammer's 2/2/2 mentality shows that it wasn't. The setup is almost forced - you HAVE to have two pure tanks to supply Guard for each DPS, you HAVE to have two pure healers, you HAVE to have two pure DPS.

What would have been easier, and what they should actually have done, is make each class have a core competence and use their off-contributions as the distinction between them. RP and Zealot throw a spanner in the works, because while you can easily point to ranged DPS for Archmage and melee DPS for Warrior Priest as their off contributions, what exactly do RP and Zealot have in that regard?

[Jaycub]

If you change WP primary spec to be Grace and DoK to Sacrifice, while AM and Shammy being Ranged Hybrids, people are just gonna go with 2 X RP/Zealot instead.

Except that is not what is happening, grace WP / Vaul AM are being buffed to be more viable for their hybrid role, they will never out heal salvation priest or Isha AM. These changes alone won't break the 2-2-2 meta, but these combined with other future changes to certain aspects/mechanics of the game could allow these buffed hybrid classes to fit in somewhere into a 6 man. I don't think anyone want's hybrid classes to become mandatory like knights/WP are atm, but certainly open up an opportunity for different 6 man setups to become viable.

And again when I say 6 man, I do not mean 6v6.

[bloodi]

What would have been easier, and what they should actually have done, is make each class have a core competence and use their off-contributions as the distinction between them. RP and Zealot throw a spanner in the works, because while you can easily point to ranged DPS for Archmage and melee DPS for Warrior Priest as their off contributions, what exactly do RP and Zealot have in that regard?

IIRC, zealot and RP are not designed as healbots, they just dont have entirely dedicated to dps masteries.

Their masteries are built around, single target, over time, aoe. Its just the same distinction for example BW/Sorc or We/WH have.

They have dps skills, they have dps tools, they have a mechanic to do dps in, they just dont have a tree entirely dedicated to dps.

Theorically, a zealot/rp can go int and do dps, its just barely any work was put into them after release and if there was, was mostly to nerf it.

[roadkillrobin]

I don't consider the 2/2/2 as a forced setup. I've seen plenty of groups with 1 tank, 1 mdps 2 rdps and 2 healers.
Some of my moast sucessful groups on live were with 2SM, 2 DPS WP, 1 dps AM and a healer.

[Jaycub]

That is the setup we have been running a lot or at least 2 rdps 1 mdps 2 healer 1 tank. Problem is you run into a destro group with like mara+chop/we and they just pressure your rdps/healers with impunity. The other thing about RDPS is if they are pressured they are not dealing much dmg because they rely on casted abilities, whereas a MDPS can have 100 people on him and still have full DPS output since his abilities are insta casts/auto attacks.

And with only 1 tank if a BG super punts him away **** pretty much totally hits the fan.

[roadkillrobin]

That is the setup we have been running a lot or at least 2 rdps 1 mdps 2 healer 1 tank. Problem is you run into a destro group with like mara+chop/we and they just pressure your rdps/healers with impunity. The other thing about RDPS is if they are pressured they are not dealing much dmg because they rely on casted abilities, whereas a MDPS can have 100 people on him and still have full DPS output since his abilities are insta casts/auto attacks.

And with only 1 tank if a BG super punts him away **** pretty much totally hits the fan.

Well thats more of playstyle issue then group setup imo. In theory and practise the setup works, i've seen it work many many times.

[Jaycub]

It works I never said it didn't, just that a group running 2-2-2 if they are of similar skill or better will beat you more times that not.

You can run clowny stuff in SC's and get away with it because SCs are casual there is no MM system and on live and here 80% of the time you are against PUGs and even when its premade vs premade you are at the mercy of the other group in the sc... if they have no healer then it's essentially 6v12.

[roadkillrobin]

Well I also think that the core of fixing these classes is to start with the healing.
The core of the class is that it's a healer.
And again what I sugested with an abillity that swap mechanic points (WITH NO GCD) would make the current mechanic work, both for healing, dps and lifesteal.
In the end, people are gonn play what works, not how they are supose to work. And neither parts of these classes works very well. If you wanna throw a wrench at the meta you need to do drastic changes like make guard a temporary buff and stuff like that. But like I said, people are gonna play whatever works. Not what sorta works. I'd start with a major look at why Shamans and AM arn't currently wanted for groups, and I give you some clues.

1: Bad mitigration.
2: Buffs/Debuffs that overlaps with other classes
3: Long cast times
4: AP issues (Shaman only)
5: A flawed mechanic
6: Bad Morales

I think the biggest problem with the classes is that as other classes got tweaked over time back on live AM and Shammy were almoast ignored due to not being popular enough but yet they were hit by same blanket nerfs as everybody else. Like the groupheal range nerf for example.