[Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

[Glorian]

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Yes and shaman is a healer archetype, engineer is dps...
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I differ on that point.
Rifle Engi is dps.
An Tinkerer Engi with tactics to define his support role, then he moves from dps to hybrid.
He losses dps and gains healing power to nearby players.

If the Engie wants to spam repeatable and survivable kegs he need to nerf his damage output hard.

Scenarios with extreme numbers are not usefull to prove this, but overal you can see that the engies Damage+Healing is still below total healing of an full healer, or total damage of an mdps/rdps.
See the above Screenshot with Mulkersons heal and damage output. He is combined still below full healer.
And compared to the other dps in this SC it helps that he didn't died as every other dps died and were taken out of action for some time.

[porkstar]

1. I do not agree with moving the skill up in tinker tree. I believe grenadier should still have decent access to this ability.
2. I do not agree with making this a group heal only. It would actually be more advantageous to groups and more like a healer ability if your group is guaranteed the heal.

Just to cast doubt on my order bias I will make the following statements.

Nobody has mentioned that the keg makes it so much easier for me to butcher scales for armor pots. I can make 60-80 gold for putting in an hour of work watching netflix. Keg and armor tactic makes this possible to farm like a boss. Try to do that with your magus. (you can hate on me in PM later if they nerf scales drop rate or some such thing)

I can face tank a lot of mdps and dps tank (not we or someone who knows their dps class very well) in pug/ish situations due to the 4200 armor and keg heal. It's especially perfect if you attack me with expert skirmish tactic applied. So if I get 100 hp/s, couldn't I loosely translate that into having a full-time 300-400 toughness buff? I mean I'm technically negating 100 of your damages every second. That is freaking awesome.

My personal opinion is that people are unhappy that engie are not necessarily free kills anymore and they do very well at pug v pug so people are now grasping for a keg nerf.

Since the problem seems to lie with the imbalance that multiple kegs cause at keep battles (I will agree this theoretically can be an issue), the best solution to test would be to reduce the number of targets healed from 9 to 6 and go from there.

[Natherul]

@Grunbag
Yes they have a self heal but I was talking about heals that heal other players.

@Glorian
Well a tank that speccs dps is still a tank archetype and does quite badly when it comes to damage when compared to a real dps archetype. And then also sure you should get some benefits for speccing to help allies instead of doing dmg, but does destro have one career who can aid healers on this scale at all thats not a healer?

Because if not then order has more healing available to them.

[Grunbag]

@natherul : ok misunderstood that sorry , but not any other rdps class got +1500self heal like magus has , and I'm pretty sure many magus enjoying this ability actually .

Of course we can take benefits of this spec , but we are only usefull in organised party / wb , too hard to coordinate our support tools with pugs .
What I don't understand now is what is the real issue ?
1) keg healing out of party?
2) keg should heal only 6 target and not 9 anymore ?
3) keg should not be stackable ?
4) keg should be targetable ?
5) keg should be mirrored ?

Can anyone make it clear cause I don't feel like anyone wants the same thing

[Natherul]

not sure anyone wants the same thing, what they are saying is that currently its too strong with too little drawbacks. those suggestions you mention are just some ways to fix it.

And sure Magus players probably love their self heal, no doubt about it, but they can only help themselfs, not everyone else... And its not like Engi only does fluff healing, thats some substantial healing that can pop up even if it is random in its nature.

[Grunbag]

The engi that make great healing has to spec for it (3 tactic required , armor talis , rr points in only def stats) that why there is not so much tinkerer on RoR
Of course rifleman and grenadier could take keg heal too but you'll see that their heal stats are ridiculous because :
1) They are not close to the fight so they have less allies around them that is taking dmg (usually hiding somewhere)
2) it cost 35 ap and took 2sec cast so it broke their dps rotation
3) they are usually not focused on their allies health / movement
4) they usually use keg only when they are focused and use keg as a self heal , they don't care how much allies are around them .

So the proposal on keg heal would only broke the tinkerer spec who actually sacrifice many thing to spec for support heal keg , and the proposal would change nothing for most engineer dps .

[Grunbag]

Why not modify keg with turrets then ?
1) using keg with gunturret : only affect the party and are non stackable heal with other keg
2) using keg with bombardment turret affect 9 target even out of party but not stackable
3) using keg with flame turret would stay the same as actually : with the range debuff of flameturret don't think in def keep siege grenadier and rifleman would turn to flameturret .
That would force dps engineer to use keg at differents places If they want to heal party , but tinkerer that stay in melee would still be usefull for their groups (having a duo of tinkerer is great cause one tinkerer cannot take all support tools by himself)

Spoiler:

In all case the thing that makes me feel unbalanced is that we are discussing about nerfing keg but nothing would change for magus self heal ?

Not discussing Magus in this thread - Penril

[Natherul]

Why not modify keg with turrets then ?
1) using keg with gunturret : only affect the party and are non stackable heal with other keg
2) using keg with bombardment turret affect 9 target even out of party but not stackable
3) using keg with flame turret would stay the same as actually : with the range debuff of flameturret don't think in def keep siege grenadier and rifleman would turn to flameturret .
That would force dps engineer to use keg at differents places If they want to heal party , but tinkerer that stay in melee would still be usefull for their groups (having a duo of tinkerer is great cause one tinkerer cannot take all support tools by himself)

In all case the thing that makes me feel unbalanced is that we are discussing about nerfing keg but nothing would change for magus self heal ?

Again the magus cant heal more then himself, making little difference in a big fight.

Not that Im against the idea of nerfing that magus ability tbh. Oh and the rules of this subforum is dont appeal to your mirror

[Glorian]

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My personal opinion is that people are unhappy that engie are not necessarily free kills anymore and they do very well at pug v pug so people are now grasping for a keg nerf.
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That is what I see here also.
In the first people were comparing the Keg from live with Keg from RoR.
But the Keg on RoR is the same Keg in T4 as it was when T3 was released.
Even the health it generated was almost the same as no ones specs WP.
So in T3 the Keg was even more powerfull than it is now.

The difference between T3 and T4 is here that with Tinkerer Armor build and Flame Turret the engi doesnt dies so fast and can upheld the keg in SCs and Keep fights.

To bring this Thread in some dirrection.
The Question is: Should the numbers of targets being reduced by the Keg?

I say no:

• -Keg healing is not directed to the most damaged chars.
  -It is the same as in T3, and destro hadn't since then no problems to take a keep.
  -If you want to cancle the Keg, kill the Engi. How to do that? Kill his flame turret with AoE damage. He needs then recast it, loose damage buff and Dodge/Disrupt. If he is an rifle build engi it is even easier.

[Sgttimmen]

Spoiler:

...
My personal opinion is that people are unhappy that engie are not necessarily free kills anymore and they do very well at pug v pug so people are now grasping for a keg nerf.
...

That is what I see here also.
In the first people were comparing the Keg from live with Keg from RoR.
But the Keg on RoR is the same Keg in T4 as it was when T3 was released.
Even the health it generated was almost the same as no ones specs WP.
So in T3 the Keg was even more powerfull than it is now.

The difference between T3 and T4 is here that with Tinkerer Armor build and Flame Turret the engi doesnt dies so fast and can upheld the keg in SCs and Keep fights.

To bring this Thread in some dirrection.
The Question is: Should the numbers of targets being reduced by the Keg?

I say no:

• -Keg healing is not directed to the most damaged chars.
  -It is the same as in T3, and destro hadn't since then no problems to take a keep.
  -If you want to cancle the Keg, kill the Engi. How to do that? Kill his flame turret with AoE damage. He needs then recast it, loose damage buff and Dodge/Disrupt. If he is an rifle build engi it is even easier.

Yep, i agree to this. No Changes needed.

No "+1" posts - Penril