Gear "grind"

[Collateral]

Without locking out the realms from crossing over you can never do it, I see it as simple as that. Maybe multiple zones might help, but that's a big maybe. Shorter times for locks so you don't fight 6 hours in a zone, lower lord hp, new bo system (similar to sc flags and points) etc. Making bos similar to scs will kind of bind the two more together. When players see that scs are just a smaller version of ORVR, perhaps it could encurage them to play both equally (plus, you won't get those random lock timers that no one can ever predict). Scs themselves might need some tweeking, but that's another topic that consists of other topics. In general, this is how the game was designed, scs, PQS, kills, all contributing to zone control. Of course, the focus here should be, and will always be I think, on pure pvp when it comes to zone control. Also, when it comes to rewards for lock themselves, I think they are fine. Everyone gets bags and medals, it's just the amount that could use a change, and the way you contribute (in my experience, kills are the biggest contributor, which realisticaly doesn't have to show your actual cont at all, i.e. kill stealing and ganking soloers).

[Aurandilaz]

regarding AAO, you cannot fix player mentality
joining the zerg is easy
playing as underdog, whilst sometimes rewarding, gets also extremely frustrating (looking at all you 6mans ganking soloers...)

AAO would have to provide the defenders with buffs that actually help in the fight against a larger force; things like extra wounds and toughness

Say, for each 20% AAO, the underdogs gain 4% extra toughness and wounds.
Up to a maximum of 200 AAO, at which point a defender would enjoy a wounds and toughness being 40% larger than the base value.

Would not help much, if AAO is just 20 (+4%), 60 (+12%) or 80 (+16%), but might give a slight edge to brave heroes who venture against a larger enemy force.

[Sulorie]

The game died on live cause the barrier for new blood to compete was to high and this was by design. What marc and later crew didnt relieze was that your new sub isnt going to spend months/years in t4 getting demolished until they are able to compete. The hidden levels etc new people were just not going to put up with it.

...


Right now the barrier of entry is not very high you can compete in anni/merc as your only one gear tier out not 4

Uhm, I don't know when you stopped playing on live, because there were no serious gear gaps later on and the gear progression was fluid.

[Aurandilaz]

The game died on live cause the barrier for new blood to compete was to high and this was by design. What marc and later crew didnt relieze was that your new sub isnt going to spend months/years in t4 getting demolished until they are able to compete. The hidden levels etc new people were just not going to put up with it.

...


Right now the barrier of entry is not very high you can compete in anni/merc as your only one gear tier out not 4

Uhm, I don't know when you stopped playing on live, because there were no serious gear gaps later on and the gear progression was fluid.

you mean Warpforged gear was not insanely overpowered compared to everything else...?
Anything sub-Sov was a walking bag of meat in T4. And Sovereign gear was paper thin when facing rr100 WF gear with all those ridiculous crit procs.

[nebelwerfer]

Cool ideas But that wont fix the 300% aao Problem what is in my eyes the biggest Problem in orvr

i had an idea, Maybe if you open t2 for t4 players But inplement the aoe patch changes and give aao a stat buff or something. so there is an anti zerg tier which promotes group based rvr and small scale battles vs warbandplay and zerging. Edit i SEE i completely missed the point of ur post xD

[Collateral]

regarding AAO, you cannot fix player mentality
joining the zerg is easy
playing as underdog, whilst sometimes rewarding, gets also extremely frustrating (looking at all you 6mans ganking soloers...)

AAO would have to provide the defenders with buffs that actually help in the fight against a larger force; things like extra wounds and toughness

Say, for each 20% AAO, the underdogs gain 4% extra toughness and wounds.
Up to a maximum of 200 AAO, at which point a defender would enjoy a wounds and toughness being 40% larger than the base value.

Would not help much, if AAO is just 20 (+4%), 60 (+12%) or 80 (+16%), but might give a slight edge to brave heroes who venture against a larger enemy force.

Trust me, aao giving buffs is really a bad idea. If anything it would only encurage the zerg. How would pug wbs have any chance against premade wbs, or even very good 6-12 mans? I'll answer it for you, they would have exactly zero chance. Hence forcing them to bring another wb or two the next time, with their odds growing if not a lot more, then at least slightly more. Aao can give other things though, like more medals for the outnumbered side. So when they actually menage to get a kill fighting the zerg, it's not completely in vain. On the other hand, this can again be exploited by 6 mans killing soloers. How about this idea, changing the amount of medals per kill depending on the enemies surrounding you. This can either encurage wbs to seek bigger foes and get bigger rewards until they equalize the fight, and also encurage them to try fight the zerg, or it can discurage the zerg from possibly feeding the enemy. It might also encurage people to form actual organized wbs that have a meaning and purpose. I'm not very sure about this, it's just brain storming.

[th3gatekeeper]

You design RvR where the larger force needs to be at multiple places and defend (domination locks)

Where blob = fail

Yeah this is really tough... For ALL of this, I think you need to look at "reward the behaviors you want to see" Gaming populations are VERY good about finding the "most efficient way" to get to any end goal. Thus if the GOAL is gear, people find ways in the current system to get gear the fastest...

Since gear is really only obtained through "zone locks" this is where 1 problem occurs... Because you give rewards to the winners (no matter the population) as well as the losers (no matter the population) this causes players to want the fastest zone locks possible... which leads to 1 side zerging and 1 side just trying to get contribution where ever they can, while not STOPPING the zerg from locking the zone... because allowing them to lock benefits both sides.


You cant remove "defender" rewards.. because you need defenders to stay and put up a fight.
You cant remove "offense" rewards.. because they are the ones who HAD to rally to take the keep and lock the zone...

So I dont know the best solution honestly... I think we need to stop trying to say (though) "live was this way" or comparing this to "live". This is part of the problem IMO. We need to think outside the box and we also need to stop the mentality of "premade or bust" either.


I could spitball solutions but I havnt fully fleshed anything out - other than what I posted in 2 other threads about RVR. I can speak personally. The TWO issues I have with RVR:

- Time
- Population


I personally dont always have a solid chunk of time to play games. Especially being NA. I largely feel like RVR is "gated" for me to play and the only times I chance rewards are late NA times when order zergs, and its like 10 destro players capping random BOs to try and get a chance at gold/purple bags... but were not really "playing RVR" rather... just trying to get contribution for bags.

The times I DO have time to play, there isnt always anything going on... 1 week ago (Wednesday Night) I actually did have 3-4 hours to sit down and tried to do CW. I was there from the start, and wrote all about it in my other thread... Not many were on. So TIME wasnt an issue, but population was... I largely felt frustrated with the whole thing.

If I were a DEV I would be looking into these "player experiences":
- Hard Touch systems vs Soft Touch systems
- Small time chunks vs Large time chunks

Every gaming experience and gamer can be broken up into these categories.

"Hard touch" is basically "raid times". We have this now. Guilds schedule full on RVR Warbands to lock zones. That works fine.
"Soft Touch" systems are places where players can log in, and dont HAVE to play with anyone else to be able to feel they can "efficiently" play the game. More like "grouping is optional". This is IMO where ROR is lacking.

Small time chunks - are when a player has <30 min to play. What can they do? How do they get rewarded?
Large time chunks - when a player has hours to play. what can they do? How do they get rewarded?

Right now, the game is structured to be VERY "hard touch" as well as "large time chunks". So its alienating players in those other camps... It also doesnt help that many of the combat mechanics themselves are all "hard touch" systems... Based on my thread about a guard rework, it seems the general population is close minded to trying to change that system to be less "hard touch" and more a "middle ground" - something that both player types can use and enjoy.

For "time chunks" we have RVR and SCs. Which is GREAT! The problem with these, is the gear is mutually exclusive. This is where a currency trade (imo) is needed. To allow players to "progress" towards whatever they want, via EITHER method. If someone wants Conq gear, they are FORCED to play "hard touch/long time chunk" gaming when they may only have 30 min to play - this often leads to someone NOT playing.

SCs would need a rework as well. Splitting things up where there is some "emphasis" put on the "hard touch" system - aka premades. I would strongly incentive 6 mans to que for premade only maps - like Caledor and I would HEAVILY reward that map. Disallow solo players to que for it. Make it a 6 man only map where wins could give 2x-3x the emblems. Stuff like this.

So here is what I see:
- SCs. Restricted via "hardtouch" combat systems (i.e. - Guard) however true hard touch SOCIAL systems are not promoted enough (rewards) and there is not much encouragement to try and have "competitive" games - common to see uneven games and premades roll over PUGs. Its a GREAT "small time chunk" system and if SOME of the "hard touch" combat mechanics were adjusted.... SCs could provide BOTH: Soft Touch + Hard touch social systems + short time + long time systems. (Good for ANY type of player).

- RVR. Heavily restricted via "hardtouch" combat and social systems as well as "time" restricted. Its GREAT when you have time + population but there is zero "soft touch" or is there ANY "small time chunk" here... Which is OK... However this could be improved by having "time limits" on zones so that a player who gets on and has 30 minutes, COULD see "a zone <30 min to end" and join RVR. So this removes SOME of the restriction of "time". Then also creating a better "system" in which players can mount defenses against premades - like a Nordenwatch (where I have seen premades LOSE by zerging) would make it more "favorable" to the "soft touch" social systems players. So now RVR is available to ALL player experiences: Soft + Hard touch in Small OR large chunks of time.

Ill stop here. I realize I said a lot without really saying a lot... but this is the direction the game needs to go and the only way to do this is to be very objective and have everyone check their egos at the door to have serious conversation (something I dont see happening). There are DEVs and players who have come across to me as not giving a flying F about certain player groups (like soft touch social systems) nor do they care about certain types of PVP (like SCs) which give you the "short time chunks".... Which is what has created a massive problem since now its a game that caters to the "hard touch" system + long time chunk players - of which (IMO) make up the minority of all PVP players (generally speaking) which MAYBE ROR is more heavily made up of that player base... but I would wager, that isnt because of the game itself but because the player who are NOT that way, have LEFT.

[K13R]

I get the feeling we are rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic

[Sulorie]

Uhm, I don't know when you stopped playing on live, because there were no serious gear gaps later on and the gear progression was fluid.

you mean Warpforged gear was not insanely overpowered compared to everything else...?
Anything sub-Sov was a walking bag of meat in T4. And Sovereign gear was paper thin when facing rr100 WF gear with all those ridiculous crit procs.

Back then you left T3 with rr70+, when done right.
Full Sov was the way to go for healers before they were able to wear full Warp, because crit immunity bonus and DOK/WP used it for regen proc. For all others it was solid too. The main difference of Worn Sov rr70 was the missing 8pc bonus, all other stats were similar to normal Sov.
Speccing TB was mandatory because of crit procs but with TB it was manageable.

The game at this point wasn't perfect or good, because too much was broken and required crutches to cover the flaws but gear and progression from T3 to T4 was totally fine.

[K13R]

Uhm, I don't know when you stopped playing on live, because there were no serious gear gaps later on and the gear progression was fluid.

you mean Warpforged gear was not insanely overpowered compared to everything else...?
Anything sub-Sov was a walking bag of meat in T4. And Sovereign gear was paper thin when facing rr100 WF gear with all those ridiculous crit procs.

Back then you left T3 with rr70+, when done right.
Full Sov was the way to go for healers before they were able to wear full Warp, because crit immunity bonus and DOK/WP used it for regen proc. For all others it was solid too. The main difference of Worn Sov rr70 was the missing 8pc bonus, all other stats were similar to normal Sov.
Speccing TB was mandatory because of crit procs but with TB it was manageable.

The game at this point wasn't perfect or good, because too much was broken and required crutches to cover the flaws but gear and progression from T3 to T4 was totally fine.

Healers have always been least affected by gear gaps in this game esp dok/wp with there bs soul regen chalice and jewels plus high armor and tb. I know as that was my main character the entirety of my warhammer experience.

Now if you want to play dps which is heavy influnced by gear and hidden character levels it was extremely frustrating even in worn sov.

It wasnt till much later that towards the end when they went opps yeah there is a hidden 4 levels well remove that. The game was much smoother after that

Dont believe me there is a industry full of crit and rip vids where the player is in 100rr and is smashing the **** out of 5 people at the same time. We get links to them all the time like look bo can spec damage que 100rr bo criting 3k on worn sov players. People marvel at it. Me, I go whatever gear gap.


I played from beta 1 to close..

I could list qualifications but nobody gives a **** around here