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Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

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tionblack
Posts: 302

Re: Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

Post#121 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:10 pm

I think it is fine as it is now,strikethrou increase would be drastic.Investing into a talent tree already granting extra damage with all the skills in that tree and its fine as it is.

I think the issue with DISTRUPT lies in wrong target choices.( Hold the line % 15 bonus,DD ,high willpower classes,special tactics which increases distrupt or skills). A buff to caster's spell strikethrou will end up with a huge power gap between casters vs others.Old defence mechanic was making everything easier for casters so i think people has gotten used to that a lot :) Now investing into DD actually means something and actually if you spare your points into avoidance actually you feel its benefits now same goes for meele aswell. Before it was too black and white.

Please keep it this way :)
Last edited by tionblack on Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

Post#122 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:14 pm

After reading through (most) of this thread, something occurred to me: is the caster vs healer "problem" perhaps a blessing in disguise?
As a side note, I always felt this was somewhat exaggerated and the complaints were more due to classes that were among the easiest/best ones becoming harder to play than they were before rather than actually underperforming. Admittedly I have no access to any sort of statistics, but BWs and Sorcs, the two classes mostly affected here seemed to be pretty popular, which is usually an indication of an easy class. And now they... can't deal with healers (and healers only) that easily? Is that really such a horrible thing? Magi and DPS healers are also affected of course, but any nerf to disrupt will affect all casters, not just the unpopular classes/builds. Similarly, a problem many don't seem to realise is that a flat nerf to disrupt or buff to disrupt strikethrough will affect not just healers but also tanks and even DPS, making them potentially even more vulnerable than before the avoidance update (melee DPS especially). So... perhaps there's nothing wrong inherently with the healer/generic disrupt as it is, just a few classes that already struggled before need some kind of boost, perhaps an anti-healer ability kit?
But back to the point; a few posts here have noted the rock-paper-scissors design the game seems to aim for. If the caster range DPS have a harder time to deal with healers now (and with no change to this incoming), won't that indirectly mean a buff for the classes that can, especially those whose niche is this? I'm talking about the WE/WH, two unpopular classes that we not long ago even had a thread about, who struggle to find a place in all aspects of the game other than one-on-one ambushes. If dealing with healers is more difficult to the caster DPS people were playing with before, perhaps now they'll more readily consider teaming up with a WE/WH who would be a "wasted party/WB slot because we could get something better" before. It might mean an alternate but valid strategy at least.

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tionblack
Posts: 302

Re: Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

Post#123 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:25 pm

Aurandilaz wrote:
Shalktonin wrote:I don't see what the problem here, as shouldn't healers be more reistant to int based dps forcing people to use melee dps on healers and such. Isn't this the kind of rock paper scissors thing we are trying to achieve?
You don't see a balance issue with a party requiring mdps assuming it wants to win (need to kill enemy healers to win), but the same mdps can still do okay against tanks (lot of tools available on mdps classes against high armor targets).
Vast majority of fights are won by destroying enemy healers, if the healers are functional and keep throwing out heals, fight will last and dps remain operational.
"Go for enemy healers and kill them" is the basic tactic you pull day after day to win fights.

It's a pvp game, you play to win pvp fights. To win pvp engagements, you bring DPS classes to your party. Their task is to hurt enemy DPS classes, Enemy healers and Enemy tanks. You can choose between physical melee classes, ranged physical classes and ranged magical classes.
Of the aforementioned choices, you know all of them have various strengths and weaknesses, but you learn fast that ranged magical dps classes have immense challenges when it comes to dealing with enemy healers. So you probably end up preferring physical melee dmg classes or ranged physical classes.
Because, why gimp your party by bringing unreliable dmg when you can bring reliable dmg?
Id beleive this if hadnt seen good bright wizards one shotting(not literally ofc) enemy dpses with the right PUNT to his tank.A good bw or a sorc will always melt target dps with heal debuff and another dps assisting. Actually everything we argue is situational ,in what condition,against which classes and where? BW,SORC dps is not unreliable haha man come on against good sorcs or bw 1 simple mistake you die as a dps.They really dont have to target healers...(again situational)
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lefze
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Re: Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

Post#124 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:32 pm

bwdaWAR wrote:After reading through (most) of this thread, something occurred to me: is the caster vs healer "problem" perhaps a blessing in disguise?
As a side note, I always felt this was somewhat exaggerated and the complaints were more due to classes that were among the easiest/best ones becoming harder to play than they were before rather than actually underperforming. Admittedly I have no access to any sort of statistics, but BWs and Sorcs, the two classes mostly affected here seemed to be pretty popular, which is usually an indication of an easy class. And now they... can't deal with healers (and healers only) that easily? Is that really such a horrible thing? Magi and DPS healers are also affected of course, but any nerf to disrupt will affect all casters, not just the unpopular classes/builds. Similarly, a problem many don't seem to realise is that a flat nerf to disrupt or buff to disrupt strikethrough will affect not just healers but also tanks and even DPS, making them potentially even more vulnerable than before the avoidance update (melee DPS especially). So... perhaps there's nothing wrong inherently with the healer/generic disrupt as it is, just a few classes that already struggled before need some kind of boost, perhaps an anti-healer ability kit?
But back to the point; a few posts here have noted the rock-paper-scissors design the game seems to aim for. If the caster range DPS have a harder time to deal with healers now (and with no change to this incoming), won't that indirectly mean a buff for the classes that can, especially those whose niche is this? I'm talking about the WE/WH, two unpopular classes that we not long ago even had a thread about, who struggle to find a place in all aspects of the game other than one-on-one ambushes. If dealing with healers is more difficult to the caster DPS people were playing with before, perhaps now they'll more readily consider teaming up with a WE/WH who would be a "wasted party/WB slot because we could get something better" before. It might mean an alternate but valid strategy at least.
The thing is, sorcs (and BW to a lesser extent) being unable to pressure healers makes them utterly helpless against any standard, well played party. And the singletarget rotation makes them extrmely hard to play against healed and guarded targets, as chances are that even if you can punt the guard the burst is telegraphed in such a way that a guardswap, cleanses, bubbles, heals, HTL and everything else is in full swing. This combined with the fact that healers simply won't get bursted right now wrecks the class as this leaves no weak spots to target. Target selection against pugs is easy, target selection against good players doesn't exist, there is no right target.

Now, taking into account that any cometitive gameplay is non-existant these days, and this is basically Farming Simulator 2018 WAR edition, things working like they do might not be considered bad, but in the grand scheme of things this is in fact a rather huge balance issue. As is stated several places, balance isn't based on performance against pugs, but against equal opposition.
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tionblack
Posts: 302

Re: Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

Post#125 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:37 pm

Spoiler:
lefze wrote:
bwdaWAR wrote:After reading through (most) of this thread, something occurred to me: is the caster vs healer "problem" perhaps a blessing in disguise?
As a side note, I always felt this was somewhat exaggerated and the complaints were more due to classes that were among the easiest/best ones becoming harder to play than they were before rather than actually underperforming. Admittedly I have no access to any sort of statistics, but BWs and Sorcs, the two classes mostly affected here seemed to be pretty popular, which is usually an indication of an easy class. And now they... can't deal with healers (and healers only) that easily? Is that really such a horrible thing? Magi and DPS healers are also affected of course, but any nerf to disrupt will affect all casters, not just the unpopular classes/builds. Similarly, a problem many don't seem to realise is that a flat nerf to disrupt or buff to disrupt strikethrough will affect not just healers but also tanks and even DPS, making them potentially even more vulnerable than before the avoidance update (melee DPS especially). So... perhaps there's nothing wrong inherently with the healer/generic disrupt as it is, just a few classes that already struggled before need some kind of boost, perhaps an anti-healer ability kit?
But back to the point; a few posts here have noted the rock-paper-scissors design the game seems to aim for. If the caster range DPS have a harder time to deal with healers now (and with no change to this incoming), won't that indirectly mean a buff for the classes that can, especially those whose niche is this? I'm talking about the WE/WH, two unpopular classes that we not long ago even had a thread about, who struggle to find a place in all aspects of the game other than one-on-one ambushes. If dealing with healers is more difficult to the caster DPS people were playing with before, perhaps now they'll more readily consider teaming up with a WE/WH who would be a "wasted party/WB slot because we could get something better" before. It might mean an alternate but valid strategy at least.
The thing is, sorcs (and BW to a lesser extent) being unable to pressure healers makes them utterly helpless against any standard, well played party. And the singletarget rotation makes them extrmely hard to play against healed and guarded targets, as chances are that even if you can punt the guard the burst is telegraphed in such a way that a guardswap, cleanses, bubbles, heals, HTL and everything else is in full swing. This combined with the fact that healers simply won't get bursted right now wrecks the class as this leaves no weak spots to target. Target selection against pugs is easy, target selection against good players doesn't exist, there is no right target.

Now, taking into account that any cometitive gameplay is non-existant these days, and this is basically Farming Simulator 2018 WAR edition, things working like they do might not be considered bad, but in the grand scheme of things this is in fact a rather huge balance issue. As is stated several places, balance isn't based on performance against pugs, but against equal opposition.
Meele dps gets affected by punts,guardswap,cleanse,bubbles,heals aswell what you say makes 0 sense to me.Also by its nature meelee dps risk himself x10 times more than fairly safe ranged caster.Considering he can be punted,knockdowned and all.
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vouzou
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Re: Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

Post#126 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:42 pm

saupreusse wrote:Just thinking. Instead of playing around with renown abilities to cover up the "initial problem" of bw sorcs critheavy rotations, wouldnt it be better trying to fix this problem at its root and thinking about a different mechanic for those casters? While toning down the effect of willpower on disrupt. @wonshot

I agree. The main cause to stuck disrupt is the enormous dmg of casters period. Making it more balance and lowering the dirsupt chanse is the key. As a healer i am running around 46-48 disrupt chanse. When in warband enviroment with 3x Hold the lines i reach 100. I am stacking armour or wounds or tougness but never willpower. so i am running around 700 Willpower with pots. My heal crit is what ever i get from items around 10% and all the rest of renown point go for defense. Why? Because if i am dead i can't heal. And because of the meta i am forced to go full defence in order to survive.
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Anomanderake
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Re: Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

Post#127 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:42 pm

Imho, 2 options:
1- put a cap on disrupt chance by willpower (quite easy no? You still want hig WP on healer because, you know, heals. Cap it somewhere so you don’t damage tank and mdps and anyone who invested a little bit in WP.)
2- give a RR ability to disrupt striketrought. This is better than a straight disrupt nerf, because is a counter that can or cannot be taken, so the meta is able to autoadjust without further nerf/buff).

But, I don’t think that this is a problem. If disrupt is too hig on healer, focus on dps. Then kill the healer. May require time, but it’s totally safe to kill an healer alone, and he can’t ress al people when is focused. And anyway, an rdps is a low risk class, it’s quite ok that isn’t effective as an mdps in term on raw damage. An mdps can’t stay under htl, can’t really kite, ecc.
Maybe we should think about PHISYCAL rdps to have a nerf, if they dominate the dps meta ;)
So, keep disrupt as it works. “If it works, don’t fix it”.
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Stophy22
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Re: Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

Post#128 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:00 pm

Really like the whole disrupts can't happen out of your ass idea suggested in the beginning of the thread. To elaborate someone said it worked similar to parry (180 degrees instead of 360)

Not entirely sure if this would balance it out but I never understood how you could be running away and a magic bolt clocks you in the head and you just have the will(power) to disrupt this attack with your butt-cheeks.

Some positive points are rewards better positioning, and players will learn (overtime) how to keep their body facing forward, to a degree, when running away or learn to leave a dangerous conflict before it gets too dangerous; Instead of getting assaulted by undefend-able Lazors ultimately leading to the Zaxxing of a life time.

Maybe I'm crazy, and I'm sure someone has some crazy math to back up why this is a bad idea but just voicing an opinion.
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Re: Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

Post#129 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:13 pm

Remember that "casters" also include Magus, DPS RP/Zealot/Shaman/AM. This is not only about BW/Sorc.

As for giving Disrupt (or anything really) to Initiative I disagree, for the fact that Order can debuff Initiative way more than Destro. Highest Ini debuff on Destro is, what, 120 from BO's stat steal maybe? Order on the other hand can stack Wrist Slash (tactic) on top of Eye Shot for example and debuff someone for 150-ish. I haven't tested if Wrist Slash stacks with SM's stat steal but, if it does, then we are looking at a 200 Ini debuff. So Order would effectively reduce way more Disrupt than Destro, not to mention BWs would still use Flashfire/Burn Through. I don't see how tying disrupt to Initiative would solve any issues (if they exist) for Sorc/Magus/Zeal/Shaman.
Spoiler:
not to mention that a 200 Ini debuff also puts the target around 100%+ chance to be crit (but that is an issue for another discussion).

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Gerv
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Re: Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

Post#130 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:15 pm

I think its important to explain and examine why high disrupt rates are occurring before even considering adjustments to the existing formula, tactics and renown abilities.

first of all, many people are claiming that "but you get 18% disrupt from renown" or "you get 15% from htl". It is important to note that these values are not what they appear, they only provide approximately 75%.

For example: using capped offensive stats and 600WP
WP disrupt% = (((defensiveStat) * 100) / ((target.EffectiveLevel * 7.5 + 50) * 7.5))
which = 22.9%
final disrupt% = <WP disrupt%> / (100 + <INT strikethrough %>) = 22.9 / (100 + 40) = 16.4%.

If you add 18% from the renown tactic you raise the disrupt% to (22.9+18) = 40.9
Thus now final disrupt = <WP disrupt%> / (100 + <INT strikethrough %>) = 40.9 / (100 + 40) = 29.2 This equates to an increase of 29.2-16.4 = 12.8% not the quoted 18%.

Secondly, what is causing high disrupt rates?
Using my WP as an example (full ani with +armor talis & +WP talis in weapons + WP pot = 805
This gives me a disrupt chance of:
WP disrupt% = (((defensiveStat) * 100) / ((target.EffectiveLevel * 7.5 + 50) * 7.5))
= 30.6% base chance
Against capped INT caster (1050) with no strike though I have a final disrupt chance of:
<WP disrupt%> / (100 + <INT strikethrough %>) = 30.6 / 140 = 21.9% chance

If I add in my obtainable percentage increases (+15% from htl, 18% from renown and a 110WP boost from stat steal) I can achieve as new base disrupt chance of
WP disrupt% = (((defensiveStat) * 100) / ((target.EffectiveLevel * 7.5 + 50) * 7.5))
= 34.9+15+18 = 67.9
Against capped INT caster (1050) with no strike though I now have a final disrupt chance of:
<WP disrupt%> / (100 + <INT strikethrough %>) = 67.9 / 140 = 48.5%
If I have an IB/BG 300 WP buff instead of the htl I have a WP disrupt chance of:
42.1+18 = 60.1% and thus a final disrupt of 60.1 / 140 = 43%

The difference between a healer and a mdps is the willpower addition:
Quick Example, mdps 300 willpower with full disrupt and htl.
WP disrupt% = 11.4 then add 15 + 18 = 44.4
Final disrupt chance 44.4 / 140 = 31.7%

Since the changes to DoTs here
-DoT abilities now can be dodged, disrupted, parried or blocked on a per tick basis. If the first attack is disrupted/dodged/parried/blocked, no subsequent DoT ticks will happen. This includes parry's positional requirement. Each tick will take into consideration an avoidance check, and facing the target is no exception to this rule.

This is why we see such high disrupts to BW and sorcs against healers and still see the magic casters relatively effective against non healer classes.

Thirdly, but my strike through!
It only adds to the attackers final mitigation value, i.e. the 140 value.
For example 9% strike though, only increases the value to 149.
Using the examples above:
With all bonuses: 67.9 / 149 = 45.6% (as opposed to 48.5%)
With IB/BG bonus: 60.1 / 149 = 40.3% (as opposed to 43%)
MDPS 44.4 / 149 = 29.8 (as apposed to 31.7)

How does this effect the discussion?
It has been stated that the formula is not likley to be changed to incorporate %modifiers into a contested roll of 100% (i.e. disrupt% + modifiers - strike through) then a contested roll against 100.
**It is also important to note that this will become more of an issue for parry chance as gear levels and available weapon skill increases. But not as prevalent for dodge as initiative is not a stat players stack to very high values due to diminishing return on chance to be crit. However Pierce defenses tactic does add 15% to double remove defenses.

However, overall I do not think there needs to be changes to the disrupt rates as the current changes encourage melee in RvR, by providing an option to activley defend against magic damage in RvR. If you have a range magic dps, the current changes requires your group to be more precise on timing of cc that prevents disrupt.

I hope this outline helps to inform future posts.

Options
a) adapt the formula. Separate strike through from stat and strike through from gear. Resulting in something like this:
double chance = (((defensiveStat) * 100) / ((target.EffectiveLevel * 7.5 + 50) * 7.5))
then double chance% - strike through% from gear = final double chance
then
double removedDefense = (((offensiveStat) * 100) / (((caster.EffectiveLevel * 7.5) + 50) * 7.5))
then
Choose random number between 0 and (removedDefense + 100). If random number is less than or equal to our final double chance to disrupt, then we parry.

This would increase the effectiveness of strike through dramatically, making it extremely valuable and would mean that it does not need to be increased going forward or at least remain very similar to now.

b) Add an adjustment to existing cc which prevents the ability to disrupt thus adding an aspect of co-ordination to release the potential.
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