Overarching balance changes

[Annaise16]

In pugs is just leaps and bounds easier to heal on the wp. That could be ok.

In group play, is just leaps and bounds easier to heal on the wp. People runs rps because well, they have to.

We made one change, one, to the Am, letting him heal with healing energy on the move, we waited like a week for people to bring something against it, no one did, they did the change and people were seriously mad that we didnt broadcast to everyone that we were going to change that and predicted the apocalypse from it. It didnt matter at all in the end.

So yeah its sad but doesnt surprise me at all.

The change to HE has actually been very useful. It makes the class a much better healer on the move.

The AM's capabilities in a 6v6 are difficult to quantify compared to the other classes.

WPs just have better survivability, and will probably provide more total healing.

The RP provides that 25% buff from Blessing of Grungni, which is easy to quantify. (By the way, is the BoG buff a blessing and, if so, can it be severed. If it's frequently severed, then that will reduce its effectiveness.)

But how do you quantify the relative effectiveness of Funnel Essence and Desperation in comparison to what the other classes bring? That is a difficult question to answer because it is very situational.

[bloodi]

If you want me to keep breaking things down farther to prove my points I will.

If you could just write in coherent sentences that make sense, it would be plenty enough, i dont even know what you are telling me in this post and it clearly says "To bloodi", thats all i could get from it, that was directed to me.

No I said arn't AS AFFECTED, DoK't don't get any of these healbuffs but in return they have much better cleansing.

10% Healcrit from DT is 5% heal increase. 15% from Focused Mending. 20% heal increase that cuts the healdebuff down to 40%. If they also gets Exalted Defence proc then heal debuff is down to 30% efectiveness.

Exalted defences needs to defend an attack to proc, how is that ever going to happen?

And again, the problem comes from group cleanse, you talk about attakcing the wp to proc one of his tactics, having kobts and all that while the Dok just has to press a button every 5 seconds.

[Shadowgurke]

Groupcleanse is strong because you don't have to think about it and you will remove something that is worth the GCD. It can be benefitial to not cleanse the most used debuff types too. Cleansing mara/bo/sh does not matter as much. They will bury their HD far enough and have spammable debuffs to keep eveything up. Being able to cleanse singled out debuffs on the other hand can be a lot more benefitial. BG AoE snare? Instantly cleansed because it's most likely the only hex/curse on most targets. Chosens oh so strong AoE wounds debuff? Instantly cleansed. Trying to cleanse a healdebuff in a group that runs 2x Marauder + BO who basically apply 1 debuff every GCD is not feasible. The reason why DoKs cleansing is so strong is the M2, not because he can cleanse Slayers with his groupcleanse.

[Annaise16]

Spoiler:

Cleanse renders what classes useless?

Let me give you an example.
Group 1
Magus, Sorc, Chosen, BG, DoK, DoK
Not a great group make up but it can work

VS
Slay, Slay, Kotb, Kotb, WP, WP
Considered OP by every destro player on earth

In the above example what party will be capable of removing debuffs effectively?
Both parties have healers that counter the DPS's debuffs.

Now lets change things around a little for destro.

Marauder, WE, Chosen, BO, Dok Dok
VS same order premade
Now what team is more effective in the meta?

Suddenly, order cannot remove any snares, nor can they remove any healing debuffs. Destro will have the edge here with CC and debuff removal, pressure wont be applied by the slayers because the WP wont be able to keep up with the damage output from destro forcing them to either withdraw or slowly die.

What I would say about cleanse is that it's actually a crappy ability that is over performing in some situation, and useless in others.

You are tyring to justify imbalance by using another imbalance as an example (Destro has 3 Ailment inc healdebuffs, while order has one crappy 25% curse one on DPS WP).

In other words: "it is ok if group cleanse makes Magus useless, because WP can't cleanse Mara or WE". Bad logic is bad.

He didn't really make the point very well but he's not totally wrong IMO. On live 2x Slayer 2x WP was totally competitive against 2x Mrd 2x DoK, and i think it is here too. Order's better passive buffs just power through it all without even cleansing anything. This is how it's balanced right now.

Changing the way cleanse works might have to be done at the same time as adjusting Kotbs tactics, and that makes it complicated.

one of the things (perhaps the main thing) that made the WP and dok more effective on live was the crit proc on the doom and warp gear. That provided a big boost to healing output and it is something the other classes didn't have.

[roadkillrobin]

And again, the problem comes from group cleanse, you talk about attakcing the wp to proc one of his tactics, having kobts and all that while the Dok just has to press a button every 5 seconds.

Lol you're talking like WP can't cleanse or ever cleanse anything at all.
Also since BO spamming Big Swing every 5 sec Chosen using Blast Wave getting ED proc is pretty easy.

[Penril]

There's something i am not getting...

- Some people complain about group cleanse, saying it makes WP/Dok OP.
- WP doesn't even use his cleanse when fighting the destro meta (unless he really wants to cleanse Chosen)
- Some claim cleanse is super important, yet they refuse to bring AM/RP to a 6v6 (which is probably gonna be against the destro Ailment meta) and prefer to run double WP.

What I get from this is that WP is preferred over AM/RP but definitely not for the group cleanse. There are several other factors that make them the preferred order healer. Maybe those should be addressed before touching cleanse?

Don't get me wrong; i know how shitty you can feel sometimes when playing a Magus/Engi and seeing all your DoTs being cleansed. That's because you can't cover your DoTs on everyone (most of your groupmates will probably be ST). So a Magus will use Glean Magic and see it remain on only one target (whoever is getting focused atm) while being insta-cleansed from the other enemies.

I believe group cleanse affects the wrong classes. WP should not be able to cleanse Magus, and Dok should not be able to cleanse Engi. That's the only cleanse change i would do, imho.

[bloodi]

The change to HE has actually been very useful. It makes the class a much better healer on the move.

The AM's capabilities in a 6v6 are difficult to quantify compared to the other classes.

WPs just have better survivability, and will probably provide more total healing.

The RP provides that 25% buff from Blessing of Grungni, which is easy to quantify. (By the way, is the BoG buff a blessing and, if so, can it be severed. If it's frequently severed, then that will reduce its effectiveness.)

But how do you quantify the relative effectiveness of Funnel Essence and Desperation in comparison to what the other classes bring? That is a difficult question to answer because it is very situational.

I know the change to HE was useful, thats why i proposed it, even if was just so they could give it to the shaman too and to block doing the same change to FE, which imo would be not good design.

The am had its advantages, problems is those advatanges are also present in the other 2 classes, ams dont ever run out of ap if played properly but guess what, wps dont either and they dont have to sacrifice a tactic for it and their way to get recources back is an aoe, not a single target skill, with all that entails.

Then they have burst healing in a game where burst is king, as long is as its damage wise, in most situations people are either healthy (above 90%) or dead, there is no situation where the healers are getting outdpsed and they just cant sustain it, its either people dissapears or they are alive. So ams shine on those times where people couldnt burst properly and you get your dps from 5% to 90%, which are also the times where they **** up and probably wont happen again.

They are not as survivable as WPs, they dont have as many useful things as Rps. Are they viable? Hell yeah but who wants to run a subpar healer?

Hipsters, no one likes hipsters.

Lol you're talking like WP can't cleanse or ever cleanse anything at all.
Also since BO spamming Big Swing every 5 sec getting ED proc is pretty easy.

No, i am talking that you as usual threw an outrageous stament that you are now bactracking on and pretending that is eveyrone else doing them.

What I get from this is that WP is preferred over AM/RP but definitely not for the group cleanse. There are several other factors that make them the preferred order healer. Maybe those should be addressed before touching cleanse?

But people runs rps all the time for that very same reason, hell, them being unable to cleanse key things is one of the reasons rps are used and i dont see wps not using their cleanse, getting rid of crippling strikes is an huge deal.

And you know why wp/dok is the usual thing people runs, its just much easier to pull off.

[Landaren]

Groupcleanse is strong because you don't have to think about it and you will remove something that is worth the GCD. It can be benefitial to not cleanse the most used debuff types too. Cleansing mara/bo/sh does not matter as much. They will bury their HD far enough and have spammable debuffs to keep eveything up. Being able to cleanse singled out debuffs on the other hand can be a lot more benefitial. BG AoE snare? Instantly cleansed because it's most likely the only hex/curse on most targets. Chosens oh so strong AoE wounds debuff? Instantly cleansed. Trying to cleanse a healdebuff in a group that runs 2x Marauder + BO who basically apply 1 debuff every GCD is not feasible. The reason why DoKs cleansing is so strong is the M2, not because he can cleanse Slayers with his groupcleanse.

dude you are already healing the focused target.

Are you really trying to tell me that using cleanse on the focused target is a big step, that, that is the make or break point why group cleanse is so powerful?

It still only removed ONE ability every 5 seconds from a focused target.
AoE wounds debuff from chosen removed a global cooldown, and removes a debuff that is bad, but not totally life threatening. Couple that with the fact that CoC proc is constantly applied at a rate that is clearly **** problematic and is removed generally as the second debuff, and you have 10 seconds of a fights worth of cleansing covered.

Crippling strikes, another blast wave, another CoC proc and you are not removing anything that will ultimately destro your team.

Roll a WP and play it against a team that has a clue and you'll know instantly the weaknesses of group cleanse, and cleanse as a whole. I'm almost 100% certain half the people that are posting about cleanse have never main healed in their lives, and most likely haven't played more then 2 classes and roles in this game.

You know how many people can die in 10 seconds in warhammer. Everyone, even a def tard tank.


I'm not saying one side is more OP then the other. I'm pointing out that cleanse needs tweaks to be effective.
Yes it sucks to not get that kill, but you know what sucks and makes everyone pissed off equally?

Getting trained down and killed in 2 seconds.

[Jaycub]

What if group cleanse was made a core healer archetype tactic?

Just wondering if people think the problem is group cleanse as an idea, or if the problem is tied to what type of debuffs are being removed etc...

[Shadowgurke]

- Some people complain about group cleanse, saying it makes WP/Dok OP.

Compare it to a ST cleanse. You are cleansing 500% more debuffs per cast. It's not what makes them OP but the way debuff spamming works means it's somewhat the only way to reliably use cleanse without letting it go to waste.

- WP doesn't even use his cleanse when fighting the destro meta (unless he really wants to cleanse Chosen)

Or Choppa or BG or Sorc. WP/Dok always excel in fights beyond 6v6. Once Marauders HD will be changed to outgoing we will see Choppa again in the "meta" group.

- Some claim cleanse is super important, yet they refuse to bring AM/RP to a 6v6 (which is probably gonna be against the destro Ailment meta) and prefer to run double WP.

Double WP is weaker than RP + WP. AM + WP or AM + WP is viable in kite groups. AM + RP is subpar because you lack fast group healing. It's also weaker when being outnumbered.

What I get from this is that WP is preferred over AM/RP but definitely not for the group cleanse. There are several other factors that make them the preferred order healer. Maybe those should be addressed before touching cleanse?

Rephrasing: Groupcleanse is stupid, requires no thought and is essentially the only cleanse worth casting. Therefor people want cleansing as a whole to be changed since currently it rewards the no brain class to be played with even less brain. The reason why WP is stronger than AM are not limited to groupcleanse, which nobody ever said.

Don't get me wrong; i know how shitty you can feel sometimes when playing a Magus/Engi and seeing all your DoTs being cleansed. That's because you can't cover your DoTs on everyone (most of your groupmates will probably be ST). So a Magus will use Glean Magic and see it remain on only one target (whoever is getting focused atm) while being insta-cleansed from the other enemies.

I never liked that argument. You can spam all your aoe dots, more than WP/DoK can spam their cleanse. The reasons why their Dots suck versus WP/DoK is because these dots suck in general against decent group healing.

dude you are already healing the focused target.

Are you really trying to tell me that using cleanse on the focused target is a big step, that, that is the make or break point why group cleanse is so powerful?

It still only removed ONE ability every 5 seconds from a focused target.
AoE wounds debuff from chosen removed a global cooldown, and removes a debuff that is bad, but not totally life threatening. Couple that with the fact that CoC proc is constantly applied at a rate that is clearly **** problematic and is removed generally as the second debuff, and you have 10 seconds of a fights worth of cleansing covered.

Crippling strikes, another blast wave, another CoC proc and you are not removing anything that will ultimately destro your team.

Roll a WP and play it against a team that has a clue and you'll know instantly the weaknesses of group cleanse, and cleanse as a whole. I'm almost 100% certain half the people that are posting about cleanse have never main healed in their lives, and most likely haven't played more then 2 classes and roles in this game.


I'm not saying one side is more OP then the other. I'm pointing out that cleanse needs tweaks to be effective.
Yes it sucks to not get that kill, but you know what sucks and makes everyone pissed off equally?

Getting trained down and killed in 2 seconds.

You are not cleansing the focused target that much anyway. That is what I said initially. It's useless to try and cleanse against debuff spam. I agree with you that cleanses are broken in genral (as in bad) and groupcleanse is the only cleanse worth using specifically because you don't spam it against specific debuffs but because it just randomly removes bad stuff from everybody. If you removed an AoE you traded GCD vs GCD. If you remove 4 ST abilities you just countered 4 GCDs.

Edit: Omnishlashing!