[Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

[Thayli]

God dammit, I go to bed and suddenly this thread has 3 more pages.

Spoiler:

But why... What makes you think that it being made unstackable needs to be compensated somehow? Why do you believe that a ranged DPS class merits having an AoE heal that does not respect the rules of 99% of the other heals in the game? Especially when you have a monopoly on it? I do not understand why people think this is okay.

Engineer has no monopoly on this heal.
M2 Shaman 150 feet heal "Breath of Mork" uses the same mechanics.
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=sha ... :5296:0:0:
Heals players for 501 health in a 30 feet Radius every 3 seconds.
Any players, not in group or anything.

It is a moral with 1 minute CD. But can be cast anywhere in 150 feet range and heals more, and is an instacast.

Yes, I pointed this out a bit earlier in the thread. Nobody I know uses that morale simply because it is a more powerful version of Keg packaged in an M2, which isn't worth it because there are better Morales. Whereas keg is fire-and-forget, we need to blow an M2 on this to achieve the same (yet slightly more powerful) effect. There isn't a single reason why people would take this over Focused Mind.

It bothers me that you have a 100% uptime (yet slightly weaker), stackable, version of this morale on a ranged DPS class. I very much agree it should stay the same for the most part because it is kind of Engineer's thing, but the stackable part is what makes it silly.

The availability of the Keg in the tree, the number of people healed, it healing out of party and the amount of healing it does can stay the same as far as I'm concerned. All I'm asking is why should you guys get a stackable AoE heal on a class that is not a healer. I realize making it not so will shift the healing emphasis of the group play of your guild's Engineers slightly, but for an individual Engineer nothing will change. As a group you'll be slightly more reliant on your runepriests instead. I honestly do not mind a little bit of self-heal on non-healer classes, but Keg is way beyond that.

[Gerv]

@natherul : ok misunderstood that sorry , but not any other rdps class got +1500self heal like magus has , and I'm pretty sure many magus enjoying this ability actually .

Can anyone make it clear cause I don't feel like anyone wants the same thing

@everyone; as per the balance discussion rules, 3. No reciprocal adjustments, aka: Don't appeal to your mirror. So there is no need to bring the magus abilities in here at all, people are losing the focus of the discussion. This is a discussion about the engineer keg in isolation. (Sorry if I am not allowed to post this comment then please edit it but I feel it is dragging the discussion away from its intended line)

@Grunbag; the issue is;
*Currently Stackable with other engineers kegs when other AoEs are not this need to be changed to the strongest heal will have priority.
This is not an issue because the ability is a set value dependent on the mastery tree and the difference in value of 10 mastery points to purchase the ability and the extra 5 to get Electro magnet is an insignificant change in the final heal number.
*It heals outside of party around 9 ppl I belive and this should be limited to party only

The ability heals up to 9 people within a 30ft radius of the keg itself. In this game the actual distance which equates to 30ft is extremely small in-game. Anyone who plays a tank will understand this point. Meaning that when the battle-line is constantly moving back and forth it is hard for a keg to be an effective healing tool, only in stationary fights like 3rd floors of keeps, spawn camping scenarios and concentrated ares of fighting like the center of howling gorge, gates of erkrand flags and BfP and Gromril junction scenarios. As we have seen from scenario screenshots. Additionally, most of these are pug scenarios and based upon balance discussion rules, is not applicable.

If limited to the party only you force the engineer to play a front line or close to, thus exposing himself to being killed, through co-ordinated targeting to be able to deploy the keg in a useful spot for the tanks and mele dps because you would only tank an engineer in a group for magnet-pulling bombing. Engineer still does not have a place in any 3-2-1 range dps set-up. Because the keg only heals when players are taking damage placing the keg in the backline is useless unless destruction are pressing high which is unlikely if order has a potent front line.

In an organised Warband setting, you would never take more than 4 engineers per party, which gives a total possible heal value of 1200 every 3 seconds if all placed at the same time. Additioanlly these kegs will only be healing the 9 players tagged which does not equate to the whole warband. Which is, in a game where burst damage and co-ordinated targeting is the key, not enough on a small time frame to out-heal the damage from dps classes when brought to bear on the same target or area when using AoE.

Therefore I believe that there is no reason to change the healing tool ability, Bugman's Best.

[Penril]

I have a few questions:

- How much DPS does an Engi lose in order to achieve big healing numbers?
- Do they have to stack Wilpower? Heal crit?
- Can a keg save someone that has a full sorc rotation on him? How many kegs are needed to do this?
- Can it save someone who is being focused by a balanced premade and has several debuffs on him? How many kegs are needed to do this?

[Glorian]

I have a few questions:

1.- How much DPS does an Engi lose in order to achieve big healing numbers?
-2. Do they have to stack Wilpower? Heal crit?
-3. Can a keg save someone that has a full sorc rotation on him? How many kegs are needed to do this?
-4. Can it save someone who is being focused by a balanced premade and has several debuffs on him? How many kegs are needed to do this?

I have put numbers in your quote to Adress them.

1. Big healing numbers are achieved in going full defense. Meaning tactics with armor, faster casting, ap regen tactic, toughness renown, and full armor talis.
Therefore instead of an BS 1000 rifle engie you are around BS 350. Your keg is effective as on the rifle build. But you can place it in the front lines.

2. see 1. it increases with Willpower but only minimal. Putting 80 WP on it gives something like +10 or +15 health per tic. I could check again but it is minimal. So the idea is to increase armor, toughness, wounds to survive.

3. How much damage is full sorc rotation? But one keg no way.

4. I have no data on it. But it should be >4. As I was sniped regularly by Nuclearpotato's Magus in his premade group while standing in between 3 other engis on the wall. That was being targetted by one enemy. No idea how much kegs you need to compensate several focus attackers.

[TenTonHammer]

A keg alone cannot save someone from a sorc rotation

Keg isn't an issue so much so in small scale vs premades but rather in large scale seiges where it's stacking force multipler nature with other AoE healing, becomes the issue

[Daknallbomb]

I have a few questions:

- How much DPS does an Engi lose in order to achieve big healing numbers?
- Do they have to stack Wilpower? Heal crit?
- Can a keg save someone that has a full sorc rotation on him? How many kegs are needed to do this?
- Can it save someone who is being focused by a balanced premade and has several debuffs on him? How many kegs are needed to do this?

Hmm If u wanna Test like that u have to do something like 6vs 6 rly good premates. And than test how much is the impact on two stacked kegs. . I dont think that a tinker engi need keg to survive a full sorc Rotation with 60% distrupt ++ The question here is rly more based on higher Numbers like wb on wb keep Fights etc. In small er scale there is no problem with keg. Its Just The possibility to place a Lot of kegs in a room all stack and makes a defense much more easy. I dont See problems on oben field wars or sc or something Else. Just at flag Fights keep def i See a huge diffrence. Cause about 5-10 engi in a Situation where they Support a full wb and the engi arent in grp is to easy they have to do nothing. Just put keg go out of range and the wb is Supportet with 1000k HPs to 9 ppl so 9000 HPs that is an impact and can be The Thing about win or loose.

[Glorian]

I have a few questions:

- How much DPS does an Engi lose in order to achieve big healing numbers?
- Do they have to stack Wilpower? Heal crit?
- Can a keg save someone that has a full sorc rotation on him? How many kegs are needed to do this?
- Can it save someone who is being focused by a balanced premade and has several debuffs on him? How many kegs are needed to do this?

Hmm If u wanna Test like that u have to do something like 6vs 6 rly good premates. And than test how much is the impact on two stacked kegs. . I dont think that a tinker engi need keg to survive a full sorc Rotation with 60% distrupt ++ The question here is rly more based on higher Numbers like wb on wb keep Fights etc. In small er scale there is no problem with keg. Its Just The possibility to place a Lot of kegs in a room all stack and makes a defense much more easy. I dont See problems on oben field wars or sc or something Else. Just at flag Fights keep def i See a huge diffrence. Cause about 5-10 engi in a Situation where they Support a full wb and the engi arent in grp is to easy they have to do nothing. Just put keg go out of range and the wb is Supportet with 1000k HPs to 9 ppl so 9000 HPs that is an impact and can be The Thing about win or loose.

Yes. But according to your calculation it is 24 Order vs 24 destros. And then 5-10 Engi supporting Order.
Which makes it 29-34 Order vs 24 destros.
So Order would win naturally by numbers. Which is nothing bad. Bigger side wins.

If it is 24 Order with 5-10 heal engies in them then the engies takes spots of dedicated healers, rezzers or tanks. And in the current meta there is only one idiot running around with 10 engis in his WB.

And no engie puts up a keg and then moves to another position.
He is a static class. He doesn't leave his turret, mine, Rod comfort zone. And snipers don't come down from 3rd floor or backside of wb to put a keg on the tanks.

[Karast]

I have a few questions:

- How much DPS does an Engi lose in order to achieve big healing numbers?
Big heal numbers in scenario are more about people standing on the keg, and having a lot of junk AoE dots to heal. You can do it in a glasscannon build or in a tank build, but most of the time you need to stick with order to get the most out of the healing so more people go tank. If you go tank to get enough toughness, wounds, - crit, and armor you drop your BS really low. Low enough to the point that you simply won't provide any meaning full dps outside of a morale 3 cannon smash. I can get as much healing on my IB with grumble and mutter, and avalanche as most engi's do with keg. It is 100% fluff. I can get 1,000,000 damage spamming acid bomb and napalm but they number is meaningless since I will not kill nor pressure a single person with 200-300 ticks every 3s.
- Do they have to stack Wilpower? Heal crit?
Willpower doesn't work well in my opinion but a full crit build, with crit tactic helps the keg healing. Going full willpower on an engi is like going full willpower on a swordmaster. They have out of party heals too, but it just doesn't work that well.
- Can a keg save someone that has a full sorc rotation on him? How many kegs are needed to do this?
1 keg no, 2 kegs no, 3 kegs maybe if they detaunt. 1 keg will not out heal a spike squigs damage. 1 keg will cover 1-2 weak dots. Namely magus dots.
- Can it save someone who is being focused by a balanced premade and has several debuffs on him? How many kegs are needed to do this?

It is useless for saving someone from focus. Aegis is better for that. You would need 6-7 kegs ticking at the same time to even make a dent, which is impossible unless you do engi 6man.

I and almost every serious engi would trade keg for aegis. I'd do it today and jump for joy. Keg is good for solo play, and for keep sieges or horrible pug scenarios, but it is useless in organized play, in premades, and even in warbands. If you mobile you get nothing more than 1-2 ticks for a 2s cast.

Aegis is hands down better for surviving spike, and the rage from the serious magi out there would be intense if it was traded for keg. It is honestly a fantastic skill that is purpose built for rifting / pulling.

[Karast]

As a replied for those saying stacking kegs is effective counter aoe in keeps.

It is not. 1-2 AoE sorcs in proper specs will outdamage the healing for 15 kegs. I have done this before. It does not work as well as you imagine it too. The sorcs will do 4-5k damage in less than 3 seconds. The tick value, and the timing between ticks just doesn't work out. 10-15 engineers staying together in a keg wall, is 10-15 free kills for proper bombing premade.

If keg was as fantastic as people in this thread were making out, Lesti and the 3rd Bitterstone Thunderers would be the top warband in the game, completely un-killable in the lakes, being able to fend off the most vicious of charges.

Those dawi do a fine job, but keg is not nearly as good as it is being portrayed.

[Penril]

Hmm If u wanna Test like that u have to do something like 6vs 6 rly good premates. And than test how much is the impact on two stacked kegs. . I dont think that a tinker engi need keg to survive a full sorc Rotation with 60% distrupt ++ The question here is rly more based on higher Numbers like wb on wb keep Fights etc. In small er scale there is no problem with keg. Its Just The possibility to place a Lot of kegs in a room all stack and makes a defense much more easy. I dont See problems on oben field wars or sc or something Else. Just at flag Fights keep def i See a huge diffrence. Cause about 5-10 engi in a Situation where they Support a full wb and the engi arent in grp is to easy they have to do nothing. Just put keg go out of range and the wb is Supportet with 1000k HPs to 9 ppl so 9000 HPs that is an impact and can be The Thing about win or loose.

I'm talking about WB vs WB. And like someone pointed out already, even-numbered fights. That means 24v24 or 48v48, not 24v29-34 like in your example.

I want to know if a WB with:
- 10 Keg Engies, 8 healers and 6 tanks

Can beat a destro WB with, for example:
- 8 healers, 4 tanks, 3 AoE Choppas, 3 AoE Sorcs, 2 Maras, 2 Rift (or Mist) Magus, 2 DPS Zealots (for AoE heal debuffs)

If the answer is "yes, if they stay in the lord's room" (because I'm 100% sure that's the only place they might have a chance), then I have a few additional questions:
- Is Keg the deciding factor? Or maybe it's the Lord?
- Would a AoE BW/Slayer group, with 8 real healers, 4-5 tanks and a few Magnet Engies be more effective than a 10 Keg-engi wb?