Gear "grind"

[Bozzax]

You design RvR where the larger force needs to be at multiple places and defend (domination locks)

Where blob = fail

Yeah this is really tough... For ALL of this, I think you need to look at "reward the behaviors you want to see" Gaming populations are VERY good about finding the "most efficient way" to get to any end goal. Thus if the GOAL is gear, people find ways in the current system to get gear the fastest...

Since gear is really only obtained through "zone locks" this is where 1 problem occurs... Because you give rewards to the winners (no matter the population) as well as the losers (no matter the population) this causes players to want the fastest zone locks possible... which leads to 1 side zerging and 1 side just trying to get contribution where ever they can, while not STOPPING the zerg from locking the zone... because allowing them to lock benefits both sides.


.

150v50 problem is countered by designing RvR so the larger force must be in several places defending (BOs and keeps).

Attackers get rewards for locking (bags + quest) and defenders get small rewards (quest) for taking a BO and preventing a lock X mins.

15-30 min timer with no rewards when you log on to stop x-realm

[Sulorie]

Healers have always been least affected by gear gaps in this game esp dok/wp with there bs soul regen chalice and jewels plus high armor and tb. I know as that was my main character the entirety of my warhammer experience.

Now if you want to play dps which is heavy influnced by gear and hidden character levels it was extremely frustrating even in worn sov.

It wasnt till much later that towards the end when they went opps yeah there is a hidden 4 levels well remove that. The game was much smoother after that

I played from beta 1 to close..

Hidden levels didn't matter, because bolster effect. I don't talk about the time, when they added rr90/100. At this time it was broken.

[Bozzax]

Extra 2K hps alone meant RR100s in reality only took 80-90% damage. Below is the low tier armor inflation for you buddy (was to lazy to add DF/WF but they were even more broken because of insane procs + crits + critvalues).

On top of this we had an inventory full of pockets and bugged lotd gear, RR100 weapons. 20-40 extra renown ranks.

No it wasn't a fair fight unless it was rr100 vs rr100

[th3gatekeeper]

You design RvR where the larger force needs to be at multiple places and defend (domination locks)

Where blob = fail

Yeah this is really tough... For ALL of this, I think you need to look at "reward the behaviors you want to see" Gaming populations are VERY good about finding the "most efficient way" to get to any end goal. Thus if the GOAL is gear, people find ways in the current system to get gear the fastest...

Since gear is really only obtained through "zone locks" this is where 1 problem occurs... Because you give rewards to the winners (no matter the population) as well as the losers (no matter the population) this causes players to want the fastest zone locks possible... which leads to 1 side zerging and 1 side just trying to get contribution where ever they can, while not STOPPING the zerg from locking the zone... because allowing them to lock benefits both sides.


.

150v50 problem is countered by designing RvR so the larger force must be in several places defending (BOs and keeps).

Attackers get rewards for locking (bags + quest) and defenders get small rewards (quest) for taking a BO and preventing a lock X mins.

15-30 min timer with no rewards when you log on to stop x-realm

Yeah IDK if this solves the problem though.... If you make it too frustrating for the "winning" side, then it deters people.... I know first hand how frustrating it can be after you kill a Lord and due to the contribution system everyone is running around capping BOs, and not defending them which increases time to lock zone etc.

I think at the "center" of all of this is the contribution system and the "all or nothing" rewards system.
I also think adding a "defensive lock" COULD BE a good solution, where if after a Lord is killed, if the defenders can stop the zone from locking (after X minutes until Lord respawn) there is a defensive "tick/lock" for X minutes to "reset" the zone - which basically puts it back at 50-50 (as if its fully fresh zone) which COULD enable you to cap BOs in another zone, moving RVR.

So now, this encourages "defense".

The problem with a 15-30 min timer, is you now FULLY alienated someone who has a short time to play for RVR. Which is something we should encourage. If a guy logs in and sees his faction killing the Lord, he would be less likely to want to help, if he got no rewards for 30 minutes - cause the zone might lock... So now there is no incentive to help.

I think ONE of the reasons you see Xrealm, is due to the nature of rewards. If RVR was turned into a "currency grind" it would alleviate a lot of this I think... The reason (I think) people hop sides, is because of the "all or nothing" loot system. Its RNG to get X color bag and RNG further for whats IN the bag. People are also convinced that contribution is broken (I cant disagree, I once went into a zone @ 98% to lock, killed 1 guy with 400% AAO and got #12 out of like 40 people there).

If less emphasis were put on the "lock" of a zone for the rewards and contribution was spread warband wide (as long as you are in the RVR lake) AND RVR rewards were made a currecy grind, not "Get lucky or die trying" attitude, AND there were some type of "accumulator" in which there was a finite "end" in any zone (so it couldnt just go on forever and ever)

Then sure, I would be in favor of doing SOMETHING to address the Xrealm (if its still a problem). I have a suspicion that Xrealm wouldnt be as much a problem though if contribution/rewards were fixed. I could be wrong though, but I wouldnt see any benefit TO Xrealm... Thats the big problem. People do it, because there is a benefit currently TO DO it...

People 6 man, rather than work with warbands because there is a benefit TO DO it.... THe DEVs have created this system, and have been encouraging this type of behaviour with the type of system they created. People are merely playing the "system" they created....

[Collateral]

@Gatekeeper - I dislike the idea of 6v6 scs giving more rewards. Imo it means certain premades will get gear even faster, by stomping pugs in regular scs, and by beating other groups who are just far less experienced. If you think it would encourage people to form groups, I really doubt it. There are certain groups who can call themselves the best for a reason. Now imagine if people would continue to play if they are constantly stomped by those groups, while basicly feeding them even more rewards, I really don't think so. Maybe I'm completely wrong though, who knows, but from what I've heard happened to live, is skilled people who had good gear simply stomped everyone else and got even better gear, and other more casual players just got tired of not getting anything (I played live for like a year so I don't claim to know exactly what happened). With this idea it could happen even faster. Although lets not forget, a lot of things depend on the design of gear and how much it will impact the gameplay. Also, you are constantly saying that the 'casual' player should get some love, so I don't understand where this came from

[th3gatekeeper]

@Gatekeeper - I dislike the idea of 6v6 scs giving more rewards. Imo it means certain premades will get gear even faster, by stomping pugs in regular scs, and by beating other groups who are just far less experienced. If you think it would encourage people to form groups, I really doubt it. There are certain groups who can call themselves the best for a reason. Now imagine if people would continue to play if they are constantly stomped by those groups, while basicly feeding them even more rewards, I really don't think so. Maybe I'm completely wrong though, who knows, but from what I've heard happened to live, is skilled people who had good gear simply stomped everyone else and got even better gear, and other more casual players just got tired of not getting anything (I played live for like a year so I don't claim to know exactly what happened). With this idea it could happen even faster. Although lets not forget, a lot of things depend on the design of gear and how much it will impact the gameplay. Also, you are constantly saying that the 'casual' player should get some love, so I don't understand where this came from

Sorry, maybe I wasnt clear. I am not saying increase rewards for beating PUGs. I am saying take Caledoor woods, maybe another 1-2 maps, make them pre-made ONLY maps (no PUGs allowed) and then increase emblems for JUST those maps. So premades will only get these rewards for beating other premades.

This also removes some of the premades from the other ques, which are more friendly to casual players.

I think you need BOTH though. I mean frankly.... I would probably separate all SC ques into two groups:
6 man only maps
PUG maps (solo/duo Que only)

And throw them on rotations (with maybe 1-2 exceptions)>

So no more premade vs PUGs etc.

So for instance, you might see 1 week:
PREMADE ONLY (6v6): Caledoor, Serpents Passage, Nordenwatch, Tor Anroc
PUG SC: Reikland, Gates, Temple, Highpass.

The next week they may rotate around...

So ANY "premade" will verse other premades in the premade que (with increased rewards).
any solo/duo Que will verse other PUG teams.


There is obviously liability here like Sync Ques, and teams of 3 etc... but this would "wack" the bigger issue of premade vs PUGs.

I would try a system like this though... See what happens. Most premade crews run around RVR doing that anyways... so its not like they are usually sitting in IC waiting for pops (when I do 6 mans, Im not sitting around)...

This encourages more premade vs premade SCs and creates a more fun "casual" SC space for most people....

Sure, premades MIGHT be able to get rewards faster... but not any faster than they already get now, stomping pugs and winning game after game after game.... etc.

[Nefarian78]

I think ONE of the reasons you see Xrealm, is due to the nature of rewards. If RVR was turned into a "currency grind" it would alleviate a lot of this I think... The reason (I think) people hop sides, is because of the "all or nothing" loot system. Its RNG to get X color bag and RNG further for whats IN the bag. People are also convinced that contribution is broken (I cant disagree, I once went into a zone @ 98% to lock, killed 1 guy with 400% AAO and got #12 out of like 40 people there).

If less emphasis were put on the "lock" of a zone for the rewards and contribution was spread warband wide (as long as you are in the RVR lake) AND RVR rewards were made a currecy grind, not "Get lucky or die trying" attitude, AND there were some type of "accumulator" in which there was a finite "end" in any zone (so it couldnt just go on forever and ever)

Then sure, I would be in favor of doing SOMETHING to address the Xrealm (if its still a problem). I have a suspicion that Xrealm wouldnt be as much a problem though if contribution/rewards were fixed. I could be wrong though, but I wouldnt see any benefit TO Xrealm... Thats the big problem. People do it, because there is a benefit currently TO DO it...

People 6 man, rather than work with warbands because there is a benefit TO DO it.... THe DEVs have created this system, and have been encouraging this type of behaviour with the type of system they created. People are merely playing the "system" they created....

I think that is the biggest issue of RvR atm. You spend hours and hours and then get rewarded with absolutely nothing. A few days ago when Destro somehow managed to get into Reikland and capped the zone it took more than 6hrs. I was there all of the 6+hrs since start to end. After having finally locked the zone i managed to reach +600 contrib, just to be rewarded with a completely useless green bag. 6+hrs wasted. That day i decided that i won't be doing RvR seriously anymore until the RNG is gone or diminished.

THAT is the problem. Why should i bother spending almost 7hrs to lock a zone knowing that i could be rewarded with nothing? I wasted 7hrs that could have gone into SCs, where i know the time spent there is rewarded.

[Aurandilaz]

I think that is the biggest issue of RvR atm. You spend hours and hours and then get rewarded with absolutely nothing. A few days ago when Destro somehow managed to get into Reikland and capped the zone it took more than 6hrs. I was there all of the 6+hrs since start to end. After having finally locked the zone i managed to reach +600 contrib, just to be rewarded with a completely useless green bag. 6+hrs wasted. That day i decided that i won't be doing RvR seriously anymore until the RNG is gone or diminished.

THAT is the problem. Why should i bother spending almost 7hrs to lock a zone knowing that i could be rewarded with nothing? I wasted 7hrs that could have gone into SCs, where i know the time spent there is rewarded.

correct

I have downsized my play hours simply because of how awful of an experience T4 currently is. Now I only venture to T4 orvr when it is daily guild WB time, apart from that, I'd rather sit on the mailbox and watch grass grow than go alone or pugging into the lakes, where despite all possible effort, I usually just get roflstomped and if not, RNG keeps pissing on me and makes pursuit of contri a waste of time.

However Scenarios keep providing a doable alternative, where your own efforts are actually rewarded. I have easily 60-75% chance of winning when PUGging Scs, and losses can mostly be attributed to enemy simply having better setup in relation to ours.

Scs provide doable progression, ORvR RNG and killstealing circus (yup, weird game design there, the greatest killsteal masters often end up contributing little to the overall fight, but walk away with the greatest amount of medals, Working as Designed?) just leave a bad taste to your mouth, even if you do 6manning and gank soloers with your heroic fotm boisband or if you play in a proper WB or in a pug WB... the best attitude towards earning Conq gear and staying sane is "I have no chance anyway, so best just ignore it and focus on being a meatshield so the pros can killsteal the medals, this is totally fun".

[Sulorie]

Extra 2K hps alone meant RR100s in reality only took 80-90% damage. Below is the low tier armor inflation for you buddy (was to lazy to add DF/WF but they were even more broken because of insane procs + crits + critvalues).

On top of this we had an inventory full of pockets and bugged lotd gear, RR100 weapons. 20-40 extra renown ranks.

No it wasn't a fair fight unless it was rr100 vs rr100

Spoiler:

Allow me to explain your chart.
All sets below Warlord were used in T3. People used to enter T4 with rr70+ and Worn Sov. Warlord had a nice armor debuff for slayer/choppa, I think 1800 value but lacked wounds. Warlord was more or less used by people who rushed to T4 or were already rank 40 with a lower rr, when the patch hit the live servers.
When you compare something, start with Sov set and factor in bolster to rank 45.

Pocket items and lotd gear is irrelevant, when you compare armor sets. People were farming them since they were able to enter lotd with rank 32.

[K13R]

Healers have always been least affected by gear gaps in this game esp dok/wp with there bs soul regen chalice and jewels plus high armor and tb. I know as that was my main character the entirety of my warhammer experience.

Now if you want to play dps which is heavy influnced by gear and hidden character levels it was extremely frustrating even in worn sov.

It wasnt till much later that towards the end when they went opps yeah there is a hidden 4 levels well remove that. The game was much smoother after that

I played from beta 1 to close..

Hidden levels didn't matter, because bolster effect. I don't talk about the time, when they added rr90/100. At this time it was broken.

This lets me know you had know idea what was going on underneath the hood of the game and you used a busted bolster as an excuse. Now you have been shown the chart that shows the power creep for in the old rr 80 it was doubly worse in rr100 meta.

You meed to pick an argument enter t4 as warlord/worn sov was after the renown expanision as prior you rr was lock to your level and you were just shown the dramatic difference in sov vs other gear.

Fact an rr 90 was treated as a level 42 Fact a rr100 was treated as a level 44(which means all the damage/mitigation formulas that this game uses when it came to character level rr100 was entered in as level 44 rr80 was entered in as 40) this is not disputable mythic later fixed this late in the game(patch 1.4.6) but it was too little too late damage was done you had zero chance against a rr100 if you were rr80 unless you were dealing with some keyboard turning S pushing back peddling baddie then maybe you had 25% chance. Bolster bolstered stats not your level it didn't give you 4 extra levels this alone is why the game was broken and this was by design not a mistake.

Marc and later team who excepted this design premise that a rr80/100rr player was like a mini titian he would show up and turn the tides of the battle able to take on a group by himself he was supposed to be rare. This was the design the vision.

So to surmise if you were not level rr100 and you fought someone that was you were at a very real minus 4 level disadvantage and if you were rr100 you were at a very real plus 4 level advantage. Again this is by design. Hence the crit and rip vids from rr100 people rolling non rr100 people that you still awe at.