[Implementation Feedback] White Lion - Pounce

[footpatrol2]

I'm against this proposal for several reasons only one of which I listed prior that Penril put in a spoiler.

The change is unneeded. Your trying to fix things that are not that broken. There is a cost to pouncing around. Your burning precious AP on a burst class and you can very easily pounce outside of guard range and then your dead.

The class already has a perma snare coming from the pet, a perma snare coming from himself, a ranged morale 1 root which is conveniently at the same range as pounce and has the ability to gap close like crazy with pounce, and can also fetch targets.

You want to add another snare or root attached too pounce but give it a cooldown... ... ...? Can this class not get more overpowered please?

Nothing really needs to be changed on pounce. If you want to add like a super small 5 sec cooldown to pounce because it annoys some players that bad WL's are constantly pouncing on them over and over again, cool. Its a shame if you do though. Even that would make me sad.

Can we please make super small changes and not these dramatic swings of changes. All these change suggestions are very dramatic and not small. I thought RoR was about making small changes and trying to keep as close to retail as possible. Even a 5 sec cooldown on pounce would have a effect. A 5 sec cooldown on pounce borders on a small change. Even that is debatable. A 15 sec cooldown? Thats dramatic. A 15 sec cooldown tied with a snare or root? Even more dramatic.

Is there no room on the balance discussion forums to oppose change? Or is that off limits and things need to change because it made it to the balance discussion forums?

Pounce is not that broken. Learn to deal with it, I have and other players I play with have. I don't even play order right now and I'm defending this.

[blaqwar]

From lurking on these forums I mostly disagree with whatever Footpatrol2 posts, but this time I have to give him props, his view on the whole matter is the most sensible one. Pounce on a career that has enough catch potential as it is, is not that big of a deal. The drastic change like the one people are favouring is an overreaction to the daily "WLs are OP" spam on destro side. Pounce is a convenient and unique tool but it has it's drawbacks. A decent WL won't spam it because of them. Giving it a minor cooldown would reflect that and leave the skill virtually unchanged for decent players, while stopping the calls for nerfs and neutering the "FOTM" rerollers spamming Pounce in T2.

A better idea would be removing the **** skill from this game and rebalancing the career. But that would take a lot more effort and testing.

Honestly I'm really sick and tired of reading about how overpowered Pounce is. I love the career but back when Mythic gave them the armor debuff that they didn't need instead of rebalancing the whole damn thing, that's where the calls of nerf started. I warned them about it, they wouldn't listen. So do the smart thing, don't overreact and neuter the class for however long it is before serious career rebalancing happens and make small changes that will hold over till then.

[TenTonHammer]

I agree with torqs point


A class cannot be defined to the extent the WL is by a spec able ablity

[Ninepaces]

Spoiler:

People should also consider swordmaster m2 in this discussion. That is two pounce like abilities on order side vs none on destro. Its a serious advantage to have instant gap closers like that. One or both should be heavily nerfed.

No we should not, because this topic is for WL and for WL only. If you have a problem with WoH you will have to wait for the appropriate topic to open.

Yes, yes we should. Looking at a single class in a vacuum without looking at interactions within the faction is a terrible way to go about balancing things. Remember this is a team game, not 1v1 solo game. Either way, even WITHOUT considering sm M2 at the very least pounce should have a 10s cooldown. If you want a snare at the end of the pounce then it has to be 15-20s cooldown. Order already have a ton of snare, which also needs to be considered. Again, you cant look at a class without considering optimizations within the faction.

*Just because someone else has a similar skill, doesnt mean it affects the balance of WL at all.

Of course it does!!! They're on THE SAME FACTION. How are you going to balance wl potentially getting an instant gap closer + snare chaining behind SM instant gap closer + uncleansable snare! This is how stuff gets broken. Its the very conversation that should be going on here. When we talk about classes like Black Guard, is it not essential we talk about chosen, black orc, maurader? Its for the same reason.

[Karast]

I would favor proposal 1

I am not keen on having the ability work off of the pet because the pet in and of itself is a bit of a problem area. It is very easily killed, it suffers from fairly low stat values, meaning that pet based abilities are more prone to being defended.

Proposal 1 is a slightly better option because it does help tackle the issue where pounce does not actually land you on a moving target, with a snare, and a cool down this may actually work out better than the current version.

I really do not feel that adding a snare to pounce would be a big issue, because that snare would more than likely be an aliment, which can be easily removed with cleanse.

[Theseus]

I'm against this proposal for several reasons only one of which I listed prior that Penril put in a spoiler.

The change is unneeded. Your trying to fix things that are not that broken. There is a cost to pouncing around. Your burning precious AP on a burst class and you can very easily pounce outside of guard range and then your dead.

The class already has a perma snare coming from the pet, a perma snare coming from himself, a ranged morale 1 root which is conveniently at the same range as pounce and has the ability to gap close like crazy with pounce, and can also fetch targets.

You want to add another snare or root attached too pounce but give it a cooldown... ... ...? Can this class not get more overpowered please?

Nothing really needs to be changed on pounce. If you want to add like a super small 5 sec cooldown to pounce because it annoys some players that bad WL's are constantly pouncing on them over and over again, cool. Its a shame if you do though. Even that would make me sad.

Can we please make super small changes and not these dramatic swings of changes. All these change suggestions are very dramatic and not small. I thought RoR was about making small changes and trying to keep as close to retail as possible. Even a 5 sec cooldown on pounce would have a effect. A 5 sec cooldown on pounce borders on a small change. Even that is debatable. A 15 sec cooldown? Thats dramatic. A 15 sec cooldown tied with a snare or root? Even more dramatic.

Is there no room on the balance discussion forums to oppose change? Or is that off limits and things need to change because it made it to the balance discussion forums?

Pounce is not that broken. Learn to deal with it, I have and other players I play with have. I don't even play order right now and I'm defending this.

If one, none core ability is so all encompassing that its considered class defining and vital then something is very wrong with it, class definition is created from core abilities and mechanics. As pounce stands now its both the cause of the most destructions tears and WL deaths, you could say thats balance but you would be wrong. Its not needed to be spammable and by virtue of it being so it masks the many other issues that the WL suffers from, for example 2 pve only tactics in their mastery trees.

As I have stated earlier, pounce is not sacrosanct and it is the 3rd iteration of the ability that we currently have so even mythic were not happy with it.

You have a point there torque, of course pounce is only one abillity, even if it is the most noticable, and gets therefore way more attention, than it should. And yes two almost useless tactics in the careertree are much worse, we probably should think about that at some time. But footpatrol, has a point there as well. If we make changes, they should be smaller. So why a 5 sec snare and a 15 sec cooldown. Lets make it an only 2 sec snare and 10 sec cooldown. That way only rather skilled players can uses that snare outside of pounce and the wl should still land on target. I also think a 10 sec cooldown would be enough. First because its not only a gap closer, but also an escape tool (yes its not nrcessary to use it as that, but you should be able to use it so) and secondly you are just done with most opponents after 10 sec.... if not the cd on pounce is the least of your problems, i can asure you that.

[Bozzax]

4 tactic slots and 24 tactics to choose from maybe not derail with "2 broken PVE" tactics? Every class has idiotic tactics often multiple in trees that never will be used.

Pounce with reliable snare at 15s cd is in context of other ranged snares having 15-20s cd. Even with a shorter snare and CD you can Pounce + Cleav Limb for a perma snare. (otherwise the change defeats its solo purpose)

For an order melee setup a ranged snare (on top of ensnare) will be very powerful. In a mixed group these are already available from the RDPS (rKDs, rsnares).

[TenTonHammer]

But I do want to bring up something some one else said...


Isn't a 3rd snare on Wl a bit much ?

Perma on pet, and now with this change; 2 snares on the WL

[Toldavf]

But I do want to bring up something some one else said...


Isn't a 3rd snare on Wl a bit much ?

Perma on pet, and now with this change; 2 snares on the WL

On that point i will totally agree with you. The white lion can already snare its target better than most tanks i don't think a 3rd snare is the right approach.

[Tiggo]

if i can trade a snare on the stupid useless pet to a snare on my char, im all for it ^^