[Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

[Noergl]

Playing a full specced tinkerer i'm one of those running around within that engie heavy warband.
Though running is an overstatement. I am stationary , i have no range, i dont do any amount of damage a dedicated rdps should be able to put out (what is often an argument i read here). Even if we put a lot of kegs down, there is no way we could survive without dedicated healers - the kegs alone wouldnt help there. If i had to fight against my own warband.... well i would stay out of range, say 80 to 100 feet and soften the wb without to much fear of retribution. and then sent in the melees. yes, the tinkerer stays a little longer on his feet, but he isnt really the engie i would focus on. Let that pity excuse for a dps die as the last one, he´s to busy anyway to do something against me. or push him away or rift him. Need proof? Look at most encounters in rvr when the enemy zerg run over us.
But when we can hold a small entrance (like a funnel) or a lord room we become a little sturdier and more of a problem, i agree to that. But shouldnt every spec have a special comfort zone? Single target, singel heal, aoe dps, aoe heal, tank, support.
A tinkerer specced with a keg isnt a rdps, hes a supporter specialised in short range surviving. Nothing more, nothing less. I cant control who i help with my keg other than placement (and even then ist not easy), i cant counter focus damage, i cant use any damage rotation worth mentioning, im nearly useless when i or my wb have to move. I never saw kegs hinder any destro zerg from taking a keep. Never even once!

What i see is the same arguments over and over again by the same people, and on the other side seasoned and experienced players like peterthepan and morf just leaving the conversation because they dont find anything to discuss or guys like grunbag or glorian trying to explain how things work without becoming tired. There is no substantial evidence brought into the discussion by the players crying for a nerf, but the keg defenders have to bring evidence to counter these statements? That is not like a discussion should work and thats not what is asked for in the game balance rules thread by Aza.

[Grunbag]

I have a few questions:

- How much DPS does an Engi lose in order to achieve big healing numbers?
- Do they have to stack Wilpower? Heal crit?
- Can a keg save someone that has a full sorc rotation on him? How many kegs are needed to do this?
- Can it save someone who is being focused by a balanced premade and has several debuffs on him? How many kegs are needed to do this?

Glorian is right , a dps engineer would turn around 1000BS

A tinkerer spec for support turning around 350/380 BS , cannot take a single rr point in crit range , and tale def sc weapons (so very low dps)
All rr points are spend in toughness , dodge/disrupt , crit reduce chance
This spec also lose 40% range because of turret debuff , so it's not really a rdps anymore , but tinkerer are usefull to buff /debuff and in all static fight phase .
One keg gives not enough heal to cover a single sorc aoe .
Stacking willpower doesn't gives much result on keg healing .
It would never heal better than a healer .

[Penril]

What i see is the same arguments over and over again by the same people, and on the other side seasoned and experienced players like peterthepan and morf just leaving the conversation because they dont find anything to discuss or guys like grunbag or glorian trying to explain how things work without becoming tired. There is no substantial evidence brought into the discussion by the players crying for a nerf, but the keg defenders have to bring evidence to counter these statements? That is not like a discussion should work and thats not what is asked for in the game balance rules thread by Aza.

Keg defenders don't have to bring evidence. OP has to, as well as anyone else complaining about kegs.

I asked a question several pages ago: given equal numbers, is a keg-engi group (let's assume 8-10) stronger than a balanced destro group? Until someone can prove this, Keg defenders don't really need to post anything.

So far, the only answer I have received is "yeah, a full order WB SUPPORTED by 5-10 keg engies will win against a destro 24-man".

[Noergl]

I want to know if a WB with:
- 10 Keg Engies, 8 healers and 6 tanks

Can beat a destro WB with, for example:
- 8 healers, 4 tanks, 3 AoE Choppas, 3 AoE Sorcs, 2 Maras, 2 Rift (or Mist) Magus, 2 DPS Zealots (for AoE heal debuffs)

No way! The keg wb wouldnt be able to put enough damage on the other wb and could only dream about beating them. With the help of destros rift and aoe sorcs the order wb would be blown open and the melees would have a slaughter fest. Im convinced of that.

- Would a AoE BW/Slayer group, with 8 real healers, 4-5 tanks and a few Magnet Engies be more effective than a 10 Keg-engi wb?

In my opinion, yes that would be way more effective.

[Grunbag]

Hmm If u wanna Test like that u have to do something like 6vs 6 rly good premates. And than test how much is the impact on two stacked kegs. . I dont think that a tinker engi need keg to survive a full sorc Rotation with 60% distrupt ++ The question here is rly more based on higher Numbers like wb on wb keep Fights etc. In small er scale there is no problem with keg. Its Just The possibility to place a Lot of kegs in a room all stack and makes a defense much more easy. I dont See problems on oben field wars or sc or something Else. Just at flag Fights keep def i See a huge diffrence. Cause about 5-10 engi in a Situation where they Support a full wb and the engi arent in grp is to easy they have to do nothing. Just put keg go out of range and the wb is Supportet with 1000k HPs to 9 ppl so 9000 HPs that is an impact and can be The Thing about win or loose.

I'm talking about WB vs WB. And like someone pointed out already, even-numbered fights. That means 24v24 or 48v48, not 24v29-35 like in your example.

I want to know if a WB with:
- 10 Keg Engies, 8 healers and 6 tanks

Can beat a destro WB with, for example:
- 8 healers, 4 tanks, 3 AoE Choppas, 3 AoE Sorcs, 2 Maras, 2 Rift (or Mist) Magus, 2 DPS Zealots (for AoE heal debuffs)

If the answer is "yes, if they stay in the lord's room" (because I'm 100% sure that's the only place they might have a chance), then I have a few additional questions:
- Is Keg the deciding factor? Or maybe it's the Lord?
- Would a AoE BW/Slayer group, with 8 real healers, 4-5 tanks and a few Magnet Engies be more effective than a 10 Keg-engi wb?

With your wb 10 engineer would be tinkerer ? (High défensives stats ?)
If not , then grenadier and rifleman won't stand that long in aoe alive .
If all engineer are tinkerer you'll only have tank , support class and healer . Who would dps then ? Only lord I think .

If considering tinkerer has no range and no huge dps , how are they supposed to kill anyone standing away from 40feet ?
I think what could makes difference on te fight is coordinated CC to push / bother destro while keep lord do the damage in your case:
Magnet healers , increase their Castime with land mine , giving ap to our healer to Be comfy , spamming keg to have a hot of course would help , use barble wire tactic , etc but keg would not be the main factor for order to win a def in lord room.
But I'm pretty sure we would lack dps in this case

[Sigimund]

It's too much of a gimmick to nerf. If it scaled with main stat (like spanner swipe or terrible embrace) then it would be both more useful and more deserving of a balance review.

[Glorian]

Ok:new question is:


1.)

I want to know if a WB with:
- 10 Keg Engies, 8 healers and 6 tanks

Can beat a destro WB with, for example:
- 8 healers, 4 tanks, 3 AoE Choppas, 3 AoE Sorcs, 2 Maras, 2 Rift (or Mist) Magus, 2 DPS Zealots (for AoE heal debuffs)

2.)

If the answer is "yes, if they stay in the lord's room" (because I'm 100% sure that's the only place they might have a chance), then I have a few additional questions:

3.)
- Is Keg the deciding factor? Or maybe it's the Lord?

4.)
- Would a AoE BW/Slayer group, with 8 real healers, 4-5 tanks and a few Magnet Engies be more effective than a 10 Keg-engi wb?


Answers.

1.) That is dependent on the definition of beat. The engie wb is similiar to what we fielded last Thursday. But some snipers in and one slayer. What this formation does, it is quite stabile to hold of large destro numbers in small locations. Heavy armor tinkerers with flame turrets can hold out quite a while and give healers time to react. So beat, only if the wb manages it to hold out till some m4 bombs are ready.
But the reason for holding aren't the kegs but flame turrets and m2 armor protection rotation.
So Holding might be possible. But only because there is confined space and a keep lord. And even rdps need to move in Engi AoE Range. But for that you need some voice chat for better magnet and moral timing.
But holding doesn't mean beat. Usually Destro builds up to M4 and storms.

3.) Reason for holding is Keep lord and actually the build in race mechanics. Ask footpatroll for some more information.
Engies m2 is 20secs 20% damage reduction for the group. With some engies and runis m2 it can be build into an 1 minute defense cycle. Tricky part is surviving the first minute. Ditching 2 engies and taking 2 IBs would been far better.
But that only works in confined spaces. Holding the mine shaft in Vein or Iceshard for example. And also only if engies have 16secs warningtime to have full buff.
And yes, without lord you cant hold this.

4.) Yes. A classical AoE wb would be the more effective sollution. Especially since it is mobile and can push better after the first wave of attackers has been beaten before destro can rezz them back.
Tinkerer Formation has the problem of loosing 40% damage if they go on pushmode.

[Penril]

My question was aimed at those who think Keg is OP.

[Grunbag]

Maybe some destro should try def support magus (if there is some magus playing that spec?) and they'll see that what's make tinkerer great is not his keg heal but all support tools / Cc /buff debuff he could gives to his own team ?

[Daknallbomb]

Hmm If u wanna Test like that u have to do something like 6vs 6 rly good premates. And than test how much is the impact on two stacked kegs. . I dont think that a tinker engi need keg to survive a full sorc Rotation with 60% distrupt ++ The question here is rly more based on higher Numbers like wb on wb keep Fights etc. In small er scale there is no problem with keg. Its Just The possibility to place a Lot of kegs in a room all stack and makes a defense much more easy. I dont See problems on oben field wars or sc or something Else. Just at flag Fights keep def i See a huge diffrence. Cause about 5-10 engi in a Situation where they Support a full wb and the engi arent in grp is to easy they have to do nothing. Just put keg go out of range and the wb is Supportet with 1000k HPs to 9 ppl so 9000 HPs that is an impact and can be The Thing about win or loose.

I'm talking about WB vs WB. And like someone pointed out already, even-numbered fights. That means 24v24 or 48v48, not 24v29-34 like in your example.

I want to know if a WB with:
- 10 Keg Engies, 8 healers and 6 tanks

Can beat a destro WB with, for example:
- 8 healers, 4 tanks, 3 AoE Choppas, 3 AoE Sorcs, 2 Maras, 2 Rift (or Mist) Magus, 2 DPS Zealots (for AoE heal debuffs)

If the answer is "yes, if they stay in the lord's room" (because I'm 100% sure that's the only place they might have a chance), then I have a few additional questions:
- Is Keg the deciding factor? Or maybe it's the Lord?
- Would a AoE BW/Slayer group, with 8 real healers, 4-5 tanks and a few Magnet Engies be more effective than a 10 Keg-engi wb?

Hm i know what u mean But thats exakt The Thing. If engis Just van heal in grp with keg there where nö problem about that. And engis could use keg massiv better tactical and not so lucky like IT is now. And the problem of mega Stacks from keg would be solved too cause no wo has 9 engis. And If they had they will leak other Things. Dunno where The Problem is to Make IT Just for Party. In smale scale its a buff for engi and in rly large scale it Cant be op