Gear "grind"

[th3gatekeeper]

Yes, that's why BOs need a redesign badly. I think everyone in this thread, and hell almost everyone in the game would agree with that. Do an experimental mode for a couple of weeks, this is a test server and ALPHA server, it says it in big red letters. You can also post a message upon login to the players, you know the stuff you see in the chat. That might also encourage people to actually think about this, and who knows what kind of ideas we would get.

This is the key. I mainly play SCs and have played a TON and a TON of SCs... I look across all the games I have played. When I am solo Queing, Duo Quing, in a 6 man, and AGAINST PUGS/Premades.

There is a common theme I see... In maps with multiple BOs (Nordenwatch, Gates, Reikland, etc.) due to not having lock timers on the map, when the enemy zergs, you can easily just follow their zerg and cap all the BOs. I cant tell you how many times I have beaten a larger zerg (and premades too) by literally just going behind them and capping.

The key: No lock timers + finite "end" to the zone (BOs tick towards points).

However we walk over to RVR and the wheel was "re-invented" somehow, and doesnt work the same way, yet is supposed to be better?

Think about what would happen to Nordenwatch, or ANY of those SCs, if there were even a 30 second lock timer put on the BO and then ONTOP of that... A "contested" period. All that would do is kill those "anti-zerg" maps.


Now, there is 1 difference. RvR is HUGE, SCs are small. So the time it takes a "zerg" to get from 1 BO to another in SCs is like 15 seconds... Where as the time it takes to get from 1 BO to the other in RVR is like 45 seconds (on average maybe).

Also I get it not being "fun" to merely sit AT BOs the entire time, fearing that it will get flipped. Nobody wants to sit AFK on a BO because they are "defending it".

So we have a balance between: "splitting up the zerg" and "making it fun".

This is where, I think you CAN have a balance..... I have detailed this out before, but I really think this would be something worth TRYING.


CHANGES:
- The "2:00 resource counter (or whatever that thing is called) is now 5:00 (you can play with this)" You will get 2% for every BO you own and you will also -2% from the enemy for every BO you own - when the timer counts from 5:00 down to 0:00". So holding 2-2 would be a tie and net zero change. Owning all 4 BOs when this ticks down, would give you +8% and enemy -8%. 3-1 would be (+4% and -4%). (Which means if you can average 3-1 every 5 minutes, itll take 1 hour to tick to 100%, from 50%). (See other point about getting to 100%).

- BOs should work like SC BOs. You stand NEAR it, without any opposition, and it will go from "Enemy-owned" to "neutral" to "you own it". I would likely increase that timer from SC timers (you can mess with this a little to find a sweet spot). This is key - it avoids "ninja" takes and also allows 1 man, or 1 party to "last stand" against a larger force and merely hold off the force for the "tick". With the current system, its much harder to stop a zerg from having 1 guy cap AND try and stay alive. This would create EPIC moments of BO defense.

- You now get ZERO (ZERO ZERO ZERO) contribution for merely capping a BO. You will get the contribution, when that timer ticks down from 5:00 to 0:00 and if you are standing ON a BO that you own (whether it was recently flipped or not). This contribution, will NOT be split by the # in your party and it will also be shared across the entire RVR lake to anybody in your warband. So to completely "MAX" contribution from any 5:00 tick, youll want a party from your warband to be located at all 4 BOs. As long as 1 person is on the BO when it ticks, the entire warband gets "credit" for that tick. This promotes splitting up the zerg, promotes warbands, and promotes LAKE-WIDE RVR.

- The "zone control" % doesnt stop at 80%. It can tick all the way to 100%. Once this happens, if the keep lord is not killed yet, it will LOCK all BOs for 30-45 minutes (for that faction that got to 100%). This provides them a window in which to focus on killing the Lord without interruption holding BOs. This also forces defenses to defend the Lord - rather than hop around avoiding the enemy capping BOs. When the Lord dies (in this scenario) the zone locks. Bags are paid out.

- IF, on the other hand, the defense is successful and the Lord does NOT die within that allotted time. The zone will "lock" as a DEFENSIVE lock and "reset" back to a Contested zone with all 4 BOs neutral (basically a full RESET of the zone @ 50-50 to start it over). This defensive lock will also pay out bags to both sides.

- To counter Xrealm. Whenever you enter the lakes, you will now get a debuff that prevents all contribution from being earned UNTIL you get one of those "BO Ticks" (for holding the BO). How this counters Xrealm is if 1 side gets to 100% zone control, the BOs lock, so literally any new players just now arriving to defend the Keep (or attack the keep) wont get ANY benefit from doing so - because there are no BOs to cap to remove the debuff. So if you want to Xrealm, the only shot you have, is to Xrealm in the 90%s and hope you get a BO tick, to then remove that debuff so you can earn contribution (and be eligible for bags). This will greatly reduce Xrealm (I think).

- If the Keep Lord is killed PRIOR to a zone getting to 100% (this is route #2 to win). Then you can keep the current mechanics of "your faction no longer LOSES -2% for each BO owned by the enemy. Meaning if you own 2 and they own 2 its a +4% for your faction).

- Bag/Loot Change: The # of bags that drop (and the # of quality) should be directly tied to the LENGTH of time of the RVR lake. If a giant zerg comes in and flips the zone in < 1 hour. The bag payout should be VERY minimal. (Similar to SCs requiring it to tick down past 9:00 to get full 6 emblems). Something like this, im sure you could even add a populaton requirement. This formula is where you can get creative in determining conditions of payouts. But anything < 1 hour (maybe even 90 minutes) should give ~ half the rewards. (basically a 3-1 cap from 50% -> 100% takes 1 hour, then Keep takes 15+ minutes. So 90 minutes is really the fastest you can lock a zone WITH a "small amount of defenders") If you 4-0 the BOs itll take you 30 minutes to 100%, then Keep = 15+ minutes so you COULD flip a zone in 1 hour... But that would be no defense....

OPTIONAL CHANGE: Create a -AAO mechanic that will provide - EXP/Renown gain for the side that has a larger force. This discourages massive 150 vs 25 battles or whatever (as well as the above).



I would love to see a system like this in place as I think it would solve A LOT of the RVR problems.

[Lancez]

Now gear literary drops from everywhere and people still complain about the grind. Same people that destroyed warhammer orginal vision with thier give loot now 1111111 Wow mentality

wow I don't know where to begin
1) you mean literally, and using the word "literally" to exaggerate your point actually shows how weak the statement is
2) gear does not "literally" drop from everywhere, this is an incredibly false statement. In both the pure sense and in any meaningful sense.
3) WAR destroyed itself, it is an immensely flawed game and we are ruing into the same flaws again
4) stereotypical characterization of gear acquisition into "gimme gimme gimme" only helps you ignore any constructive discussion on the topic

[Sulorie]

Hidden levels didn't matter, because bolster effect. I don't talk about the time, when they added rr90/100. At this time it was broken.

This lets me know you had know idea what was going on underneath the hood of the game and you used a busted bolster as an excuse. Now you have been shown the chart that shows the power creep for in the old rr 80 it was doubly worse in rr100 meta.

You meed to pick an argument enter t4 as warlord/worn sov was after the renown expanision as prior you rr was lock to your level and you were just shown the dramatic difference in sov vs other gear.

Fact an rr 90 was treated as a level 42 Fact a rr100 was treated as a level 44(which means all the damage/mitigation formulas that this game uses when it came to character level rr100 was entered in as level 44 rr80 was entered in as 40) this is not disputable mythic later fixed this late in the game(patch 1.4.6) but it was too little too late damage was done you had zero chance against a rr100 if you were rr80 unless you were dealing with some keyboard turning S pushing back peddling baddie then maybe you had 25% chance. Bolster bolstered stats not your level it didn't give you 4 extra levels this alone is why the game was broken and this was by design not a mistake.

Marc and later team who excepted this design premise that a rr80/100rr player was like a mini titian he would show up and turn the tides of the battle able to take on a group by himself he was supposed to be rare. This was the design the vision.

So to surmise if you were not level rr100 and you fought someone that was you were at a very real minus 4 level disadvantage and if you were rr100 you were at a very real plus 4 level advantage. Again this is by design. Hence the crit and rip vids from rr100 people rolling non rr100 people that you still awe at.

About what patch version you are talking here? Everyone knows that 1.4.0 was a fail, when they introduced rr90/100 without any balancing measures, what resulted in extreme power gaps.

RR was unlocked from character rank much earlier, because people, who only did rvr/sc complained about being capped to rank. It was a good change and here in ROR it is even better, because you can't spend more points than your char rank, despite being able to farm more rp.

RR100 was rank 45, not 44. Every 4 rr above 80 you got one virtual rank. Don't you know this?
Bolster didn't only influence stats. It altered the character rank as well, just not at release of 1.4.0.

When too many sets with increasing stats can be used in one tier, the worse power gaps become. T4 has a lot sets and no bolster, so power gaps existed. When they made T3 until 39 on live and moved some T4 sets to T3, they reduced T4 power gaps, because people were able to use Sov, when they left T3. T4 had basically 3.5 armor sets, when you add Worn Sov.
The gear progression was balanced, just not at release of patch 1.4.0.


"Marc and later team who excepted this design premise that a rr80/100rr player was like a mini titian he would show up and turn the tides of the battle able to take on a group by himself he was supposed to be rare. This was the design the vision. "

Makes no sense at all and nobody said something like this to the public.

"So to surmise if you were not level rr100 and you fought someone that was you were at a very real minus 4 level disadvantage and if you were rr100 you were at a very real plus 4 level advantage. Again this is by design. Hence the crit and rip vids from rr100 people rolling non rr100 people that you still awe at."

Once again, you sound like someone, who stopped playing after release of 1.4.0 and only knows half the story.

[Collateral]

- The "zone control" % doesnt stop at 80%. It can tick all the way to 100%. Once this happens, if the keep lord is not killed yet, it will LOCK all BOs for 30-45 minutes (for that faction that got to 100%). This provides them a window in which to focus on killing the Lord without interruption holding BOs. This also forces defenses to defend the Lord - rather than hop around avoiding the enemy capping BOs. When the Lord dies (in this scenario) the zone locks. Bags are paid out.

- IF, on the other hand, the defense is successful and the Lord does NOT die within that allotted time. The zone will "lock" as a DEFENSIVE lock and "reset" back to a Contested zone with all 4 BOs neutral (basically a full RESET of the zone @ 50-50 to start it over). This defensive lock will also pay out bags to both sides.

I really don't like this. For the first suggestion: this would let the zerg cap the zone in seconds (not literally of course), as it would give no time for a defense to organize. People need to start a warband, organize a bit and fight for a bit, see what they can do and so on. This way they would instantly hop into a keep defense, and try to scramble as many as they can to do something. Would that even encourage people to do anything? I mean BOs are locked, the zerg is on the keep, what the hell can you do now except wait for lock? Leaving the BOs to be open but reducing the lord hp might help here. Maybe you lost the keep for whatever reason, but you can still bring the fight to the enemy. Don't forget that the in this new system BOs wouldn't even lock. So you wouldn't have to wait for 6 minutes on every bo to unlock again. If you have the numbers already, it should not be a problem to retake the BOs.

For the second suggestion: this could again give you 6 hour zones. Sides are equal, no one can take the keep, one side tries, then the other side...who knows how long it can take. And giving bags on this kind of zone lock hmmm I'm not sure man. Imagine how many bags you could get in one sitting then. If the zone resets several times over it would be bags galore. This can also be exploited heavily, just think about it.

I like the current system where you need suplies to start an attack on the keep, you can't just go in the zone and take it. It makes sense to me. Why need an arbitrary number of control for a keep to unlcok. You can set this at any amount it doesn't matter. If both sides fight long enough, and both accumulated enough suplies, both can try take the keep. This only happened to me once, we still don't know what would've happened if we actaully took the order keep and lost ours. We are also not sure if the lord reset after we lost our keep, or we were just not fast enough, maybe a dev can clear this out

Btw, we are really starting to derail this thread into another RvR thread, we have plenty of those around

[K13R]

Yeah they fixed all that july 2012 patch 1.4.6 and game closed in Dec 2013 concrats on your 1 1/2 years of gear balance and /sc tiers based on rr levels.

Bullshit he certainly said that in public city seiges were supposed to be rare like incredibly rare. You do know some of us had to grind the **** out of pve to get warded for thise fights right long before zone locking merry go round and 2 city seiges a dsy. You know you had to win /sc vp plus grind pq vp plus take a keep through 2 zones. Then win a fort fight to get to the /sc prior to the city invasion, then win a enough victory point to actually get ti the city srage one. Yeah they werent supposed to be rare at all. Ypu sound lile some who played only after 1.4.6

[Sulorie]

Bullshit he certainly said that in public city seiges were supposed to be rare like incredibly rare. You do know some of us had to grind the **** out of pve to get warded for thise fights right long before zone locking merry go round and 2 city seiges a dsy. You know you had to win /sc vp plus grind pq vp plus take a keep through 2 zones. Then win a fort fight to get to the /sc prior to the city invasion, then win a enough victory point to actually get ti the city srage one. Yeah they werent supposed to be rare at all. Ypu sound lile some who played only after 1.4.6

Now you talk about city sieges and SOV set farming. Why you change topic from rr90/100 imbalance to city raids?
Oh, don't you remember that the reward for city fights, which required a lot effort and almost never succeeded during prime time, were horrible unrewarding SOV items? The first iteration of them was a horrible mess and they had to rework all of them to give them proper stats and bonus.

[th3gatekeeper]

I really don't like this. For the first suggestion: this would let the zerg cap the zone in seconds (not literally of course), as it would give no time for a defense to organize. People need to start a warband, organize a bit and fight for a bit, see what they can do and so on. This way they would instantly hop into a keep defense, and try to scramble as many as they can to do something. Would that even encourage people to do anything? I mean BOs are locked, the zerg is on the keep, what the hell can you do now except wait for lock? Leaving the BOs to be open but reducing the lord hp might help here. Maybe you lost the keep for whatever reason, but you can still bring the fight to the enemy. Don't forget that the in this new system BOs wouldn't even lock. So you wouldn't have to wait for 6 minutes on every bo to unlock again. If you have the numbers already, it should not be a problem to retake the BOs.

I dont see how its any different than today. Right now you go into an empty zone. 2 BOs capped. They all lock for what, 10 min? Then the fighting starts...

a zerg could cap all the BOs in seconds (ok lets roll with this) then must hold them for 5 minutes to get 8%. (15 minutes into the zone being open). Then lets say people are still organizing for another 10 minutes (16% more). They come into the zone, its been 25 minutes of 1 zerg 4 capping.

Score? 74% - 26%. This also assumes a 4 cap - something that I dont see often. Usually its a 3-1 situation (almost always) and so even if the warband took 30 minutes to rally, while a handful of people held them off at 3-1. 10 minutes + 20 minutes of 3-1 ticks = 4 ticks @ 4% means.

66% - 34%. Again not even close to being over yet....

For the second suggestion: this could again give you 6 hour zones. Sides are equal, no one can take the keep, one side tries, then the other side...who knows how long it can take. And giving bags on this kind of zone lock hmmm I'm not sure man. Imagine how many bags you could get in one sitting then. If the zone resets several times over it would be bags galore. This can also be exploited heavily, just think about it.

Again, it cant last for 6 hours. If you can even get 3-1 every few "ticks" youll progress towards 100%. Then BOs lock. If the BOs lock its now a "HARD TIMER" on when the zone will "lock" and payout bags.

This is why its critical to develop a good formula for bags. Maybe defensive bags DONT pay gold.... there are options here....

I like the current system where you need suplies to start an attack on the keep, you can't just go in the zone and take it. It makes sense to me. Why need an arbitrary number of control for a keep to unlcok. You can set this at any amount it doesn't matter. If both sides fight long enough, and both accumulated enough suplies, both can try take the keep. This only happened to me once, we still don't know what would've happened if we actaully took the order keep and lost ours. We are also not sure if the lord reset after we lost our keep, or we were just not fast enough, maybe a dev can clear this out

Btw, we are really starting to derail this thread into another RvR thread, we have plenty of those around

You dont remove supplies... how else do you get siege equipment? You need supplies.... So this doesnt change that... If you waste ALL your time doing BOs but no supplies, youll have to waste a GOOD chunk of your "BO lock time" just running supplies to get enough to get a siege equipment....

Also there wouldnt be "both sides take keep" because the side that got 100% would lock the zone, so there is no point in doing that.



The 1 point I will give you is the "could be exploited" on the defensive "lock". This (again) is where I think you get creative in bag handouts... You dont ALWAYS have to give gold. You dont always have to give purple... etc. This also (BTW) is where making RVR a "currency farm" rather than "all or nothing bag RNG" is better. Because you can merely give Medallions for bags, so merely earning gold means nothing... it might pay 25 or 30 medallions... but that wont buy you a piece.

Just saying THIS system promotes the TYPE of play you want... if you have to adjust loot correspondingly, then do it. But what you said was basically "due to loot, we cant do this" - which IMO is backwards...

You have to give incentive for people to WANT to try and stop you from taking the Keep. Right now, once 1 side gets a larger force and its clear they are going to flip the zone... people give up defense. They give up fighting and merely play the "contribution game"..... This isnt RVR.... It will never be unless you encourage the type of play you want to see. My system does this.. It encourages cross RVR lake, warband play, removes benefits of zergs. requires coordination and "timed strikes" against BOs it also provides a "finite" countdown till a zone lock (for rewards scaled based on # of factors) it promotes defense on a zone, it discourages Xrealm, etc etc.

[K13R]

Bullshit he certainly said that in public city seiges were supposed to be rare like incredibly rare. You do know some of us had to grind the **** out of pve to get warded for thise fights right long before zone locking merry go round and 2 city seiges a dsy. You know you had to win /sc vp plus grind pq vp plus take a keep through 2 zones. Then win a fort fight to get to the /sc prior to the city invasion, then win a enough victory point to actually get ti the city srage one. Yeah they werent supposed to be rare at all. Ypu sound lile some who played only after 1.4.6

Now you talk about city sieges and SOV set farming. Why you change topic from rr90/100 imbalance to city raids?
Oh, don't you remember that the reward for city fights, which required a lot effort and almost never succeeded during prime time, were horrible unrewarding SOV items? The first iteration of them was a horrible mess and they had to rework all of them to give them proper stats and bonus.

Forget it I was wrong you were right

let me recant my statements

Warhammer had no vertical gear progression issues it was smooth sailing from 1.2 on to the day it closed(everyone was on equal footing it was just skill or the lack of)

Warhammer didn't go against its original vision of having tier gear be rare it was supposed to be free sov for everyone
(relevant to this discussion)

Warhammer didn't have the worst 30-day sub retention rate in the history of MMO's(percentage base)

matter fact I'm sure if game workshop wouldn't have demanded and exorbitant fee that the game would still be up and running and EA wouldn't have been down to one North American server called the Badlands and definitely would not have a working version of the game that was free to play with a cash shop with p2w items


on a sidenote: I'm glad Marc landed on his feet and can't wait till he opens the CU and can keep to his vision and not be pressured by outside forces to make rvr version of wow. I can only hope that the staff here can do the same

[Penril]

"Warhammer had no vertical gear progression issues it was smooth sailing from 1.2 on to the day it closed(everyone was on equal footing it was just skill or the lack of)"

Wasn't Tyrant incredibly broken on certain classes when it was released? LotD was released on 1.3, iirc.

[K13R]

"Warhammer had no vertical gear progression issues it was smooth sailing from 1.2 on to the day it closed(everyone was on equal footing it was just skill or the lack of)"

Wasn't Tyrant incredibly broken on certain classes when it was released? What patch was that? If it was pre 1.2, pay no attention to this post.

1.2 game was before tovl it gave us slayer and choppa and no TOLV gear wasnt overpowered on wp/dok with its soul regen properties it wasnt overpowered on the mdps stacking melee haste it was perfectly balanced