Overarching balance changes

[Cimba]

If they were not chance based, BW has space in tactics to run it, i dont think the sorc does.

But still, i hate the design of it, if its 100%, it makes cleansing against BW worthless, furthermore, it encourages you to put BB first so it gets cleansed and then reapplied, making cleanse even worse.

If its chance based, its a binary outcome, sometimes is great, others is trash.

So i dont like the design of such things at all.

Even at 100% you wouldn't put BB first because every time it is cleansed it starts at 5 seconds again. True you wouldn't be able to cleanse BB with the currently used rotations. However cleansing is not really a counter to DoT BWs anyway because in grp play you wont get to that BB (aside from cleansing wind and morales). The only thing that it does is that BWs don't pick up Ignition anymore because Ignite is what gets cleansed in most cases.

In generall I like the idea of changing these reapply tactics because it wouldn't throw over the entire cleansing system.

PS: BW doesn't really have space for the tactic but hey thats good design if you have a lot of competitive choices... right now Smoldering Embers isn't among them.

[Luth]

The SH debuff type needs to be changed to "hex" instead of "ailment" so that every healer can cleanse 8 classes.
Everything else doesn't need game mechanic balancing, it needs class balancing.
If a class has too many important debuffs or it's debuffs are too powerful, the class needs to be proper balanced, not the debuff mechanics must be bend to fit imbalanced classes.

From a discussion 5 months ago:

On dok vs WP cleanse:
The disparity between the dok and the WP cleanse comes not from the classes themselves, but from the SH who has the same debuff type as the SW (ailment, should be hex for the SH) and the marauders massive debuff potential.

Why not the other way around. Have the SWs be "curses"?

Because every healer can cleanse 8 classes, except the WP who can only cleanse 7 while the RP can cleanse 9.

Edit: With changing the SW debuffs you would create part of the "cleansing disparity" on the destruction side. That would be a nerf to the dok cleanse and a buff to the zealot.
But the dok cleanse is OP because of the group cleanse tactic, not because which classes he can cleanse imo.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11525&start=40#p119627

Spoiler:

Because every healer can cleanse 8 classes, except the WP who can only cleanse 7 while the RP can cleanse 9.

Edit: With changing the SW debuffs you would create part of the "cleansing disparity" on the destruction side. That would be a nerf to the dok cleanse and a buff to the zealot.
But the dok cleanse is OP because of the group cleanse tactic, not because which classes he can cleanse imo.

The Dok's cleanse tacitc does the same thing as the WPs cleanse tactic, the value of the cleanse differs in it's power. Not all debuffs are as important to cleanse. This is apparent with Heal Debuffs/CD increasers/ huge Bomb Dots.

The zealot gets fairly short stick when it comes to cleansing compared to the WP and honestly I don't mind Zealots and RPs cleansing more than a WP/DoK due to the fact that their cleanse is single target. Shamans and AMs also get the short end because of inability to cleanse WoPs/BB.

Considering the strength of what a Dok can already cleanse, coupled with thier M2 means they are a no brainer choice for 1 if not both heal slots. I am also of the belief that the SH/SW heal debuff is too good as a spamable, but that is for another time methinks. In conclusion, I think moving SW to curses is a needed change compared to buffing WPs who have more heal potential due to tactics and synergies with knights.

The zealot has actually an advantage in cleansing one specific class, but it's not that big:
The dok can't cleanse the IB (50% outgoing HD), while the zealot can cleanse it.
The WP can cleanse the BG, while the RP can't cleanse it.

Besides that:
if one healer can mostly cleanse underperforming classes maybe it would be better to fix those classes to be competitive in the debuff department/transfer important debuffs on other classes of the same archetype.
On the other side:
if one healer can't cleanse a very important debuff type because class X has OP-debuff Y, maybe this class should be fixed instead of changing anything with cleansing/debuff types.

If we start to give healer A the possibility to cleanse 10 (underpowered) classes while healer B can cleanse 6 (overpowered) classes, new problems will arise when those underpowered classes maybe get buffed in the future.
The "mythic-bandaid-fix-style" will only lead to new problems.

While that is true, while there is an inabability to cleanse some classes over others then some healers will always be less powerful that others due to the very nature of some debuffs. Perfect example is BB and Shamans.

True. But as i wrote, if it is the consensus that it is absolutely mandatory that certain debuffs of some classes need to be cleansed or else you lost the fight before it begun, those classes or abilities need to be fixed.

I think also that in a proper balanced game it would be a disadvantage to take 2x the same class for your group.
Atm you don't get any disadvantage for taking certain classes two times, instead you get often an advantage (which is another clear sign for imbalance).

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11525&start=50#p119653

[roadkillrobin]

One thing that kinda needs to be pointed out is that DoK didn't have the group cleanse tactic until 1.4.1 patch wich imo explains why it's a bit unballanced compared to WP one. It also kinda explains why they have the Khaine's Whitdrawal morale.

They also used to have this tactic

Restored Motivation
Restore Essence will also grant
250 points of Morale to your ally

[Landaren]

I dunno, SH/SW heal debuff has more issues then it being a certain type of debuff.

Like 10 point spamable from range 50% incoming heal debuff screams bat **** OP to me, but what do I know.

I mean, lets look at some of the 14 point abilities on healers and compare them to a far more attainable ability for said DPS classes

WP and DoK
AoE heal that has one of the lowest co-effecient healing ratio in the game, and randomly targets 6 people, full health or not.

RP/Zealot
Best thing they get is the stagger, and maybe winds on a zealot. 0 healing related spec abilities.

AM/Sham
AMs get funnel, that's pretty solid for a heal, not amazing past 1 or two tics but still better then WP DoK joke channeled heal
Sham get a small hot with a toughness buff, not amazing, but not a total waste either.


Are these 14 point abilities going to save your life against spamable incoming heal debuffs? Nope, I'd argue they are light years behind how strong rotten arrer and shadow sting are.

There are other crazy good 10 point spec abilities in the game as well, Im not going to start picking through all the classes and saying this and that is way broken like a butt hurt child, but I do feel like over all healers have been given almost no counter play options other hide your ass around a corner, or under a bridge, or behind a wall. The tank train rushes in, AoE snares you, hopefully its your debuff type of you are F'd. Then you get CC'd perma snared and trained down.

Wow skill, the class with the most viable escape options are RP/Zeal.
Why? Because they get to stat swap, so their meager CC at least lands and gives them a few seconds to not get butt raped.

How the F do marauder pulls even land on a disrupt check when I can count on one hand the amount of times my full WP heal spec AM has managed to mini punt people off her, or my WP for that matter.

I could go on and on about the crap healer mains have to put up with, or how often I hear people ask in voice chat about why we aren't getting kills in some SCs when we are facing healers with clear counters to our debuffs and have a brain to remove them at the right times.

If you guys think a 5 second cool down ability will break the game if its given some buffs, how can you not argue that a ranged 50% incoming heal debuff is not already breaking it when it has no cooldown?



I'm done now, this post will be my last about cleanse.


And Jay, Magus not being viable in 6v6 isn't because Magus is in a bad spot, other classes in destro are just way to broken to not have in a 6v6 situation.

could a Magus be used, sure, they could lock down the other teams healer while the rest spike out the other healer while his dots tick away on the assist. They can use the pet as a peel for their healers if they get in trouble.

They have option, but it takes a lot more skill then just face rolling your keyboard like certain other classes can, and most people don't want to put the time in to git gud at it.

[Luth]

The SH debuff types were always strange, some debuffs have even the type "cripple" in the tooltip (which doesn't exist, must be a remnant from pre-release).
Here you can easily compare who can cleanse which class:

wp - dok

Spoiler:

am -shaman

Spoiler:

rp -zealot

Spoiler:

[Landaren]

One thing that kinda needs to be pointed out is that DoK didn't have the group cleanse tactic until 1.4.1 patch wich imo explains why it's a bit unballanced compared to WP one. It also kinda explains why they have the Khaine's Whitdrawal morale.

They also used to have this tactic

Restored Motivation
Restore Essence will also grant
250 points of Morale to your ally

Changed to AP to match WP AP tactic.

DoK community cried until they were directly mirror for the WP, and considering the meta at the time it was needed due to slayers being so redic going ham all over the place.

When choppas were in alpha they screamed about being a curse based dps because of cleansing power, they demanded to be an aliment class.

[Jaycub]

And Jay, Magus not being viable in 6v6 isn't because Magus is in a bad spot, other classes in destro are just way to broken to not have in a 6v6 situation.

could a Magus be used, sure, they could lock down the other teams healer while the rest spike out the other healer while his dots tick away on the assist. They can use the pet as a peel for their healers if they get in trouble.

They have option, but it takes a lot more skill then just face rolling your keyboard like certain other classes can, and most people don't want to put the time in to git gud at it.

When you talk about balance, it's best case scenarios. Whether or not a class is easy to play should be of no concern. And most of us on this server I am quite sure are vets with hundreds of hours in the game, who will be getting the most out of class regardless of the skill cap.

Aside from things like punts there are no skill shots in this game, no high level of mechanical skill like aiming... it's a tab target combat system. After you have enough game knowledge unless you are a cripple things are easy. What truly good players in this game have is teamwork, being good at this game requires you to be able to perform well in a group, use voice communication, come up with teamplay/strategies etc...

kind of a rant , but just trying to drive home the fact that skillcap on a class shouldn't even be an issue in balance discussions. I'm probably even just misunderstanding your post and typing **** up like a madman foaming at the mouth lol.

[Dabbart]

Skill cap in this game is largely knowledge based and situational awareness. Communication/teamwork is more Logistic's than Skill, since you can have 1 person barking orders that the others follow.

Telling someone to "git gud" or theorycrafting for a specific time/place/build that would make a particular class "viable' is irrelevant honestly. Magus' have their place currently, the problem is that even in their respective "hot-spot" being played by a Top Magusier, they can still be outshined. You balance classes based on a Curve. Not the absolute best players that utilize the class.

[roadkillrobin]

One thing that kinda needs to be pointed out is that DoK didn't have the group cleanse tactic until 1.4.1 patch wich imo explains why it's a bit unballanced compared to WP one. It also kinda explains why they have the Khaine's Whitdrawal morale.

They also used to have this tactic

Restored Motivation
Restore Essence will also grant
250 points of Morale to your ally

Changed to AP to match WP AP tactic.

DoK community cried until they were directly mirror for the WP, and considering the meta at the time it was needed due to slayers being so redic going ham all over the place.

When choppas were in alpha they screamed about being a curse based dps because of cleansing power, they demanded to be an aliment class.

Ohh man i found the tactic that Efficant Patching replaced. I think it might be the worst tactic in the entire DoK arsenal considering you need to spend mastery points for it.

Persistent Rending
Reduces the chance that you will be set back while casting Rend Soul by 50%

[Jaycub]

You balance classes based on a Curve. Not the absolute best players that utilize the class.

Different design philosophies. I want this game to be as competitive as possible I guess.

Take for instance overwatch, mei and bastion are one of the least picked characters in professional play... yet they are easily the most hated classes on the forums and are constantly cried to get nerfed by the masses.


Regardless what route the devs take with this game I will still play it and have fun though.