Changelog 15/11/16

[catholicism198]

One evening is not enough, but when trying to rank a Disciple from rank one (all testing was probably done at rank 40,) the lack of a chalice makes it difficult to do so because of your limited abilities- Covenant of Tenacity is a rank 14 ability (The one that grants Soul Essence over time)- but that's not the only issue.
The biggest issue is that you do not get access to Transfer Essence until you're rank 30, so aside from your Torture abilities (which means you're not healing- so they're dying,) you do have have anything useful to build up your Soul Essence.
Before it was removed, you had an ability called Consume Essence (cannot be resurrected- replaced with Khaine's Invigoration,) available at rank 6, which built Soul Essence AND healed your defensive target (as well as all targets around them)- so you did not have to worry about not healing and watching them die while you build up Soul Essence.

My suggestion is easy, swap the rank at which you learn Transfer Essence with Khaine's Invigoration, as Transfer Essence is an integral ability for melee healing, while Khaine's Invigoration just promotes backline healing (something you're trying to avoid.)

The above is an annoying problem, and will likely force a period of mandatory .ex for every DoK/WP in the game.

Please address the issue outlined above before making it mandatory.

[Azarael]

Done.

[dur3al]

I'm yet to test any of these changes but.. but what I gathered from reading this is that in order for healing to be effective they also need to go in melee once in a while, and for that you gave them an undefendable melee heal?

Must I mention that the natural counter to that is run full ranged setups, so they cannot do that? In order to create a weakness to explore?

Additionally dps DoKs might as well completely replace some mdps classes since they're probably even stronger now (IF you decide to run with a melee dps), in addition to AA haste and procs - an issue which nothing has been done in order to fix it for reasons.

I know I'm kinda sounding like a broken record on this topic by now, but can't you realize how huge high risk / low reward is playing a melee dps these days already ?
Why it seems you are looking at balancing classes and specs individually while not looking at synergy between groups outside of having a guard or not, having heals or not, also their viability in 6v6/12v12/18v18 scs + 24v24/oRvR + PuG? Do you have good enough testers to run premade vs premade fights in order to check for this?

[catholicism198]

Done?
My suggestion/plea?
Okay, I'll hold off on ranking my Disciple out of t1 until the changes are live.

Proc meta is a completely different issue

Speaking of procs.... any chance we can get the procs and stats for these weapons updated to reflect the inevitable changes?

Something people probably missing:
Without .ab ex


With .ab ex



The stats are the same but the chalices and tomes are not available with .ab ex

[Azarael]

stuff

You are sounding like a broken record, and the problem is that you're not acknowledging something I've said many times before: you make an omelette by cracking eggs. I've warned, time and time again, that in order to deal with larger problems (WP/DoK concept violations and ease of play being this example), it would be necessary to move through interim states of imbalance, and that we would not be afraid of doing so.

Yes, procs are still a problem, and yes, we are going to start on that soon.

Yes, mixing of AoR overpowered backline DoKs with .ex melee DoKs is presenting problems, and we're going to hit that.

Yes, DoK in particular has lingering problems - the most obvious one is the M2 group cleanse on both mDoK and backline DoK, and we're going to hit that as well. DoKs should deal with that now - SL, Order crit stacking and standard group cleanses were nerfed, this M2 causes too many problems to be left untouched and there is now no longer any reason for you to have a reset button on M2.

No, you shouldn't comment on the changes without having played them. You could be right about ranged setups, or you could be wrong, but one thing you failed to acknowledge is that you are not forced to melee - you can play as backline with -50% armor.

Any change we make will cause a meta disruption, and I intend to look in more detail at finer balance once coarser issues like this one have been dealt with. What you do not do is finely balance a game first and then blow holes in that balance by tackling coarse issues, like Knight/Chosen mechanic and WP/DoK.

[peterthepan3]

only one evening is not enough for have a clear view about this changes but
what i saw make me really fear for the future

i played in PREMADE against PUG sc with wp "live stance" and the less i can say is in PUG sc new stance don't look effective
dok/wp are now in PUG sc totally useless

the problem here is how make wp/dok viable in PUG without be overpowered in PREMADE and i'm not sure that will be possible

i'm really afraid about what i said in my frist post
"this change will target PUG tacitly reinforce PREMADE"

not the good way for this game a least for the major part of the commmunity i guess

try balance 3 playstyle healer melee healer and DPS
and PUG / PREMADE viability
and SC and RVR
at the same time is for me impossible but the attempt was commendable

but i'm agree one evening of test is not enough

Absolute rubbish. WP/DOK are equally as viable in pug scenarios as they are premades: in fact, they're probably even stronger in pug scenarios (bring a tank buddy to duo) due to mixture of damage/healing/survivability.

You should stop trying to push to your 'anti-pug changes!' agenda when all testing thus far points to the contrary.

[BrockRiefenstahl]

Done.

Haha Aza in beastmode!

[braendir]

only one evening is not enough for have a clear view about this changes but
what i saw make me really fear for the future

i played in PREMADE against PUG sc with wp "live stance" and the less i can say is in PUG sc new stance don't look effective
dok/wp are now in PUG sc totally useless

the problem here is how make wp/dok viable in PUG without be overpowered in PREMADE and i'm not sure that will be possible

i'm really afraid about what i said in my frist post
"this change will target PUG tacitly reinforce PREMADE"

not the good way for this game a least for the major part of the commmunity i guess

try balance 3 playstyle healer melee healer and DPS
and PUG / PREMADE viability
and SC and RVR
at the same time is for me impossible but the attempt was commendable

but i'm agree one evening of test is not enough

Absolute rubbish. WP/DOK are equally as viable in pug scenarios as they are premades: in fact, they're probably even stronger in pug scenarios (bring a tank buddy to duo) due to mixture of damage/healing/survivability.

You should stop trying to push to your 'anti-pug changes!' agenda when all testing thus far points to the contrary.

i wrote here what i saw yesterday

you can call that absolute rubbish if you want you can even consider that like a argument for hide the vacuity of your reply

but don't tell me the new stance are as viable in PUG as PREMADE it's not true

and if you think i'm against all change who can impact negativily pug you're wrong

you are just using fallacious logic like the one
you are pug find a group and shut up

but i'm sorry but this broken logic is without object here

[Culdu]

-- only about experimental mode DOK/WP in melee

Some of the changes look really interesting and i will enjoy trying out several ideas I have, but i already see some points which are not working. But this is a experimental mode at all.

- I know some of the following suggestions won't work yet due to the need of new abilities.

Devotion & Vita
- AOE Detaunt: a defensiv push is definetly necessary when running melee heal. But an AOE detaunt is just not working with Devour essence. Devour essence is offen seen as pure damage/burst ability but i use it a lot to keep allies up vs melees.
Additionally, with having perma aoe detaunt i also see the problem with no more need for tactial movement and positioning while melee healing. I would suggest a 10sec 50% incomeing dmg debuff with 20sec cooldown. That would give you and your grp a time window when focused to get out a bit or get guard. Due to beeing able to cast useful heals now that would make the gameplay much more interesting than aoe detaunt.

- ...and become undefendable: Yes it is **** when you have bad parry luck, enemy parrying exactly the right things and your grp mate dies coz of that. But that is just the game and havening this abilites undefendable really makes it too easy mode. That would make melee movement or reaction to morals/abilites completly irrelevant. Due to low Str values i guess a 25% higher chance to strike through one this abilies could be the way to go.

-> both things like they are now support standing inside the battle brainless hitting 1 key(now melee heal instead of grp heal) and salting this with a bit grp heal. I thought changes should move dok/wp to a a bit more active, demanding role, which my suggestions should perhaps do.

Righteousness
+ The damage inflicted by Path of Wrath skills increases based on your Righteous Fury level, to a maximum of 40% .... that must be a mistake u meant 25% did you ?

+ When you trigger your Prayer of Righteousness, it will increase your movement speed by 20% for 5 seconds. This will only affect you. .... allways a problem when enemy gets out of range, but on the one hand order has at all some more cc, and having nearly permanently 20% faster char can't really be the way to go. I would suggest putting weight of guilt to snare also without a curse allready applied(perhaps DOK also) and judgement having a 30% chance to apply a 20% snare. Both only in Righteousness

- Guilty Soul tactic should only work when being in Devotion

-Fueled Fury & Fueled Action should not work in the Righteousness/Celerity mode


Greetings Starilas

[peterthepan3]

WP = 40% because it lacks devour essence/insane proc potential that the dps dok has.

Guilty Soul is a staple in a Wrath spec. If anything nerf the healing component, but I don't think that is necessary when devour essence is essentially a mini rend soul if used well - and can be used in Torture stance. .