[Disciple of Khaine] Terrifying Aura

[Khazolan]

The main issue, aside the already mentioned DW vs 2H, superb healdebuff tactic and overwhelming amonts of dots - is the lack of the Covenant of Celerity.
It is THE thing, that provides so much utility. It enables for DoK to kite some of the damage in melee range, avoiding and denying the opposing melee train the chance to hold on the target.
Thou its true that you can just put a tank slow on him, but its not that simple to run through the wild chopping Choppa, affecting everyone with 20% slow, just to see your Crippling Blow to be parried.
It enables for DoK and his group to catch up the ranged and healers with an ease. Plus spams the target with constant debuff, which wastes some of the healers cleanse, meaning that important debuffs like Crippling Strikes and Word of Pain are that much harder to remove.
So in my opinion, if the equality is the thing, before the DoK gets that sweet detaunt mirrored to his dps spec, shouldn't we address the more important issue here?

The main issue, aside the already mentioned DW vs 2H, superb healdebuff tactic and overwhelming amonts of dots - is the lack of the Covenant of Celerity.
It is THE thing, that provides so much utility. It enables for DoK to kite some of the damage in melee range, avoiding and denying the opposing melee train the chance to hold on the target.
Thou its true that you can just put a tank slow on him, but its not that simple to run through the wild chopping Choppa, affecting everyone with 20% slow, just to see your Crippling Blow to be parried.
It enables for DoK and his group to catch up the ranged and healers with an ease. Plus spams the target with constant debuff, which wastes some of the healers cleanse, meaning that important debuffs like Crippling Strikes and Word of Pain are that much harder to remove.
So in my opinion, if the equality is the thing, before the DoK gets that sweet detaunt mirrored to his dps spec, shouldn't we address the more important issue here?

1. Overwhelming Dots

I'm not sure what overwhelming dots you're taking about... DPS DoK's have 2, possibly 3 at best. Not too overwhelming.

2. WP v DoK

I've addressed the different heal debuff tactic several times but I'll do it once again (and address Celerity at the same time). Bring these buffs to Warrior Priests. They would be good changes to bring up the power level of WP and put them on par with DoKs. This, however, is no reason why DPS DoKs don't need this change. Please take your suggestions about WP buffs to the WP forums.

I will be convinced that this buff is unnecessary if you can explain to me why, from a high level perspective, DPS DoK doesn't need this change to free up a single tactic slot that brings it closer to be on par with literally every other MDPS.

3. Mirror Discussions

It seems to me that the majority of balance discussion that has gone on so far has been mostly concerned with balance between mirrors. This approach does not seem ideal, where ultimately you may have balance between mirrors, but have those classes significantly better than others. That isn't balance, or at least the balance we should be aiming for. While it can be used as some indication of balance, it certainly should not be the exclusive criteria for whether a change goes through. As it stands, our hard working devs have limited time capital to invest into perfectly balancing the classes, whilst also improving the game and bringing us other good things (t4, dungeons, etc). If a change can be made for the two mirrors that will help bring both into being competitive then that change should be implemented, regardless of whether it brings the power level of one of the pair higher than the other (so long as it is a good step towards overall balance). Obviously in an ideal world we would be able to make rapid and accurate balance changes, but we cannot. The next best alternative is to make the most efficient changes to bring the game into balance, whilst also adapting the best we can to any changes that were short sighted or incorrect.

Given the subjective nature of the power level of classes, it of course makes balancing rather difficult, especially when balancing decisions will be derived from community input. The community will always tell you that certain aspects and/ or the enemy is stronger.

All I can tell you is that this buff is an easy one to make, not significant enough to be stupidly overpowered, and one that will bring consistency to the general game (DoK only melee DPS class without free aoe detaunt). If that's not convincing enough, then I am willing to accept that the change is warranted. But I would like to see more discussion as to why this change is incorrect when considering the whole game at large.

[Tesq]

seems any of you miss the point that

wp deaunt is positional, it can be used against 1 rdps and it all ppl near him
dok detaunt is around him, you use st detaunt on a rdps and then you detaun ppl around you

the difference is that thew wp detaunt is better for damage mod becouse armor stack + damage prevent melee to do stuff which is nto the case for magic caster.

So there is really no issue regard defense also considering wp have a parry buff, which put him exatly on par with dok off mode and also it's a better healer due to that and exalted defense(20%) heal more.
The free tactic it's just a not needed surpluss, they can slot it by themself what they lack is in damage which mean BOTH not wp and dok should have a free aoe detaunt.
WP also have 3 skills that do spiritual damages so he only have to stack 1 offensive stats than dok that need 2.
DOk dont need a buff, wp need a reverse and some damage skill test also the fact that he dosen't have a 50% heal debuff dosent mean other classes cant. If these classes want THE BEST tactic in game (cos a spammable 50% damage reduction debuff not cleanseable it is) they should slot it not have it for free.
Also dont move detaunt tactic in heal path it would make wp even more op due to parry buff in grace + exalted defense.

[Scrilian]

A well composed post, that is hard to find these days, and most points in which I can agree with, especially for a member of the opposing realm, except:

I will be convinced that this buff is unnecessary if you can explain to me why, from a high level perspective, DPS DoK doesn't need this change to free up a single tactic slot that brings it closer to be on par with literally every other MDPS.

But DoKs and WPs are not MDPS, despite them wanting to be one. They are the healer-meleedps-hybrid, that bring a lot of upsides from both sides of the archetypes. One of the mirrors especially does it so well, that in their mind they are the MDPS and should be buffed to be one, despite the amount of utility they bring to the battlefield.
I'm not saying they are ok and don't have issues to be addressed, but the whole notion that they are the MDPS and should be pandered to as such is mind blowing. They should also have their downsides and not overshadow what, for example, a dedicated WE player brings to the battlefield - a niche that, in my opinion, dps DoKs strive to take over with a less burst but tons of utility and higher armor.

[Khazolan]

But DoKs and WPs are not MDPS, despite them wanting to be one. They are the healer-meleedps-hybrid, that bring a lot of upsides from both sides of the archetypes. One of the mirrors especially does it so well, that in their mind they are the MDPS and should be buffed to be one, despite the amount of utility they bring to the battlefield.
I'm not saying they are ok and don't have issues to be addressed, but the whole notion that they are the MDPS and should be pandered to as such is mind blowing. They should also have their downsides and not overshadow what, for example, a dedicated WE player brings to the battlefield - a niche that, in my opinion, dps DoKs strive to take over with a less burst but tons of utility and higher armor.

That's a very fair point. I'll admit I get carried away with MDPS potential for DoK. The problem is that I know that DPS DoK is sub-par and when an easy fix comes along that is successfully applied to the mirror, I feel it should be given to the DoK. Note the logic here isn't that the WP gets it so should I, but rather in terms of power level relative to the rest of the game, freeing up a tactic slot will go a long way in improving the DoK's Dps and therefore ability to heal. I am of the opinion that the extra tactic slot will not see the DoK get too close to the damage dealt by a WE and other MDPS, but I of course am not familiar with every class and can say that as fact.

I suppose the problem actually lies in the capacity for DoK's to heal via dealing damage, where 2 of its buffs that improve damage also deny healing, which is exceptionally counter-intuitive if you are of the opinion that the DoK can either heal or DPS-Heal (and not exclusively DPS). It does make some sense if you believe that DoK's should have some capacity to also focus exclusively on dealing damage. The issue here is that if we set up the DoK to exclusively focus on damage and act as a MDPS class, they also have fairly easy potential to heal significantly without investing any portion of the build into damage converted into healing.

Perhaps a reasonable fix is to remove the healing debuffs from Divine Fury and Murderous intent if a chalice is equipped. If this is the case, a DoK will still be able to deal reasonable damage whilst also healing reasonably well, but not quite as good as a Dok focussing entirely on heals or one on DPS. This may remove the counter-intuitive nature of the personal healing debuffs, and give the Dual wield build its own place in the game (whilst not making it too strong). Not too sure. I haven't really considered any solutions outside of the one proposed above (because this is a change that seemed so very realistically close to achieving and thus is worth arguing for).

More food for thought. Please keep the discussion going.

[Culdu]

Hey,
as long as we only talk about a ae detaunt, which doesn't stack with guard (what we all know now ) wouldn't be a big benefit for a sacrifice dok(t3), perhaps for torture, the melees you get out with devour essence, and the range ... even with ae you normally only get one or two i guess. About all the other stuff ... first of all using murderous intent isn't very clever, and about the balancing a meleeheal, sacrifice dok works fine, but , yes, he needs a guard. Already seen that Azarael wrote in WP discussion that he just shouldn't get it, dds should get it. Well wouldn't sign that, a guarded sacrifice dok/grace wp can heal the amount a normal healer does in addition he deals a nice amount of damage on a target, so, why shoudln't he get guard ? coz he is not "worth" it ? If we don't play in whole grp the first tank always guards the melee dok, coz he grants a baseheal for everyone else and thats keeps the people alive, sure tanks should switch guard in combat but that is definetly another diskussion . Again ... like i wrote in several other threads already , why i'm so scared about your change doks/wp - melee heal discussions, the class is working fine, if u know how and click aaaaa lot, and that is exactly why i love it! If u start changeing(aside from lil changes wp, example heal debuff) one of two things will happen, it will be completly overpowered for people who now how to play it, or you change a class some people really love coz of great mechanic to a class which is press 1 1 1 1 1 1 for idiots.
I hope you won't change the dynamic ....
if anyone needs info how a sacrifice dok works .... whisper me
Greetings Stars

[snowfox1]

Heya Az, this is directed to you.

Please do not give AOE detaunt ability to any DoK that wants to be on the front line, it will unbalance them. They are already monsters to the monsters in the lakes at this point, give them this and even premades won't be able to take them down if well played. I know most folks don't see this right now. That's because we are only in T3, however, I did read somewhere that T4 and the later RR are coming.

I'm not trying to insult anyone in this thread so please don't take any of my comments as inflammatory, however, after playing a DPS DoK for 4 years on the live servers and going through numerous testing I believe I have a good grasp of the DPS DoK. As I read every post in here, it would seem most (not all) really don't have a clear understanding of what a DPS DoK can do. The abilities they mention are all wrong, play style they are describing is wrong, and the role they fulfill is wrong.

First off we know that melee heal DoKs are a drain to premades, they HAVE to use a guard that should be going to a Choppa (that's just the start of it) and not a wanna be melee healer that is going to be outhealed by a DR DoK, Shammy, Zealot by ~200% without needing a guard. When talking about a Sac DoK and melee heals, it would seem most folks get these blinders on them and they focus on heals. A really good healer doesn't just heal, they predict the eb and flow of the fight. I would guess that 99.9% of Sac DoKs cannot do this when they are on the front, they have no clue where everyone. A DR DoK knows when to burn their bubble (its has a 60 sec timer) and when not to, a Sac DoK has none of this utility. Also, the DPS output of a Sac DoK is laughable at best and just sad if you are trying to DPS.

Again, it just goes back to the point that you are hurting your group which could be better without you and someone filling a true DPS or healing role. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, I'm just saying it's not optimal. In case you didn't know this, Tanks are EXTREMELY important in premade vs. premade they are hard to kill and the best way to kill them is to kill the person they are guarding. I get a choppa is easier to kill than a Sac DoK, however, Choppa's don't need help killing their targets, a Sac DoK does. A Sac DoK has no place in a melee train, if you don't understand what this is PM me and I'll explain the base mechanics of how premades work.

On to an actual DPS DoK, the only tree this can be done in is Torture (I say this with the common understanding of the general understanding of what DPS is). Which it would seem most know very little about. First off, the number one DPS output for a DPS DoK is white damage, please conduct all the testing you want. This will not change, understanding this is the first step in knowing your role and how to play the Torture DoK. Also, (I know we aren't at lvl 40 yet) you should have 5 cripples. 4 in torture tree and 1 in Sac tree, being Torture the first 4 hit very very hard and is important that you keep them up. Renown gets tricky, some go parry, some go crit, some go wep skill. This is more flavor, each has their purpose and it really depends on what gear you have access too and your playstyle. Your big defensive skill though will be RS, this heal is based on STR and how much damage each hit does (crit really helps here). I read in a post above about the 20% heal hit a DPS DoK takes. Look if you are trying to heal yourself with those abilities, your already screwed. Don't ask for a way to get around the 20% heal nerf. You've accepted the trade off - heal for DPS - don't try to go around it. If you want defense stack armor (not Tough), in testing armor performed better.

I've said this in another post, you really need to pick a role and stick to it. In the immortal words of Mr. Miagi grape on this side of road - safe. Grape on that side of road - safe. Grape in middle of road - get the squish.

DoKs are amazing at DPS, and can actually out DPS all the DPS classes (you can't dps when your dead) DoKs are amazing healers, arguably the best in the game for Dest. DoKs are not good at both at the same time.

There is a reason why in 5 years of the live servers (with thousands of people performing testing and posting real numbers) the Sac tree was never made a main tree by 90% of all DoKs. If you go back and look at the top healers in the entire game on both sides you'll find DoKs in the mix. If you go back and look at top DPS for both sides in the game you'll find DoKs in the mix. I'd be willing to bet no one EVER remembers an amazing Sac DoK. If they were there then the Arsenal folks ran em over like a speed bump with their train. You just don't have the staying power (DR DoK) or the DPS output (Tort. DoK) to be viable in a melee train.

To sum up. Az the only DoK that should get an AOE detaunt is a DR DoK - if you give my Torture DoK an AOE detaunt, once I get my gear you might as well give me stealth ability as well. I won't ever need a group to help me. I'll start recording my videos of me solo capping BO's killing 8-12 folks solo and all the good stuff. While it's very fun for me, it's bad for the game as a whole.

In the name of balance don't give in to this. There is a reason why I played a DoK for 4 years, why now that you beautiful people have brought back my game I'm playing a DoK again (as you can see I like variety heheh). When we talk about balance, we know the game is order favored for the most part. However, the DoK is the bright spot for Dest. while a WP can heal better it's minimal numbers, you take a DPS WP and a DPS DoK and the DoK wins 90% of the time. This is an unbalance in favor of Dest.

ps. I'm not checking my spelling so be gentle.

[Azarael]

I'm way ahead of you. I will propose solving the role problems of WP/DoK differently when the time comes.

[Renork]

@ above poster, 1) wall of text 2) wut? "DPS" glass cannon doks melted in t4 (especially after r100 was introduced). I don't foresee you soloing 8-12 people as that would be beyond impossible (no lotd here). Talk about major exaggeration, holy **** lol

[Renork]

Aza :> y u do this to me

[Penril]

There is a reason why in 5 years of the live servers (with thousands of people performing testing and posting real numbers) the Sac tree was never made a main tree by 90% of all DoKs. If you go back and look at the top healers in the entire game on both sides you'll find DoKs in the mix. If you go back and look at top DPS for both sides in the game you'll find DoKs in the mix. I'd be willing to bet no one EVER remembers an amazing Sac DoK. If they were there then the Arsenal folks ran em over like a speed bump with their train. You just don't have the staying power (DR DoK) or the DPS output (Tort. DoK) to be viable in a melee train.

Pretty sure most "DPS" doks had more points in Sacrifice than on Torture. Most of the Doks i knew of would go for Pillage Essence instead of Wracking Agony. In other words, most of the amazing Torture Doks you remember were actually Sacrifice Doks.

To sum up. Az the only DoK that should get an AOE detaunt is a DR DoK - if you give my Torture DoK an AOE detaunt, once I get my gear you might as well give me stealth ability as well. I won't ever need a group to help me. I'll start recording my videos of me solo capping BO's killing 8-12 folks solo and all the good stuff. While it's very fun for me, it's bad for the game as a whole.

You want DR Dok to get free AoE detaunt? I really doubt that is gonna happen. The reason for giving it to WP was to buff their melee healing (you can read Aza's thread where he first introduced the change and specifically mentioned he had been playing a 2H WP and noticed his survivability dropped a lot when he tried to melee heal). There is absolutely no reason to give a free AoE detaunt to backline-healing WP/Dok.

I think most of us agree that melee Doks shouldn't get a free AoE detaunt. They would be too strong (nowhere near as invincible as you claim though). The question is: should WPs keep their free AoE detaunt while using a 2H? I think not. I would prefer a buff to their Grace tree (and Wrath too since it is nowhere as good as Torture). Doks Sacrifice is mostly fine. Both classes could use some kind of buff to Sigmar's Radiance/Transfer Essence and Empowered Transfer/Grace of Sigmar. Remember: the AoE detaunt change was made primarily to buff melee healers. That's how all of this started.

We don't care if melee healing wasn't viable on live; the point here is to MAKE it viable.