stats Armor vs Toughness

[th3gatekeeper]

The cap from armor is 75%
But realisticly weaponskill gonna reduce somewere between 35-50%
At endgame on live tanks ran around with something like 110% armormigration without potions. Wich translate to an avrege of 60% mitigration before debuffs. Even with the worst armor debuff in the game and the averge weaponskill you'd still mitograte something like 50% of the physical dmg.
Maxing out on armor talismans gonna give you something like 15% more mitigtstion. after worst debuff and avregee WS. At that point you're looking at same mitigration vallues that stacking up on toughness talismans gonna give you. But toughness works against all types of dmg so it's just a better inevestment at that point. When exactly this turn around happens is hard to say considering how progressive toughness are. But i would guess it's between 80-90% armor mitigration.

Thanks, I guess using this "generic" values you posted.... If you are at 50% mitigation, adding 15% doesnt just add 15%... It actually reduces their damage by 30%.


100 damage - 50% mitigation = 50 damage.
Adding 15% mitigation = 35 damage.

50/35 = 30% difference...

So how much toughness would you need to reduce damage by 30%?

I get that it only applies to melee/physical damage. But considering a large % of the damage a tank takes IS physical damage... It may be worth skewing your defenses that way... Not to mention, I dont think anyone isgoing to be able to blow you up if you are WAY past soft cap on resists, stack atleast 20%+ disrupt/dodge... Chances are the only way youll go down is a huge focus fire from range, or more than likely a melee train - which then armor would help more?

[Keyser]

Ehmmm what???
If toughness reduce the dmg by 100 then it's 100
Do you mean that you get less % coz higher ressistance reduce a bigger chunk of it?

I meant what I wrote. Assume you would not have any toughness in our example. Then you get 600 dmg. Now assume the mitigation coming from toughness is 100. Then you take 540 dmg. So the "net mitigation" coming from toughness is 60 not 100. I am sorry, but I do not know how to make the example more simple than this. :-/

@th3gatekeeper: I did not check you calculation in detail but it sounds correct (no insurrance, its already late here :p), plus your conclusion makes sense to me.

[roadkillrobin]

Yeah i get what you're trying to say. But the difference is really small.
If the ressist were 30% you would gain "more" from toughness as it would mitigrate 70dmg instead Meaning adding ressist in this case is the better option. I agree.
But with armor it comes to a point were it gets deminsihing returns due to weaponskill and armordebuffs. And by that point you gain about the same amount mitigration by adding toughness instead. And it's really hard to pin point were that point is. But i'm fairly confident that it's in the 80-90% armor mitigration somwere.

[th3gatekeeper]

Yeah i get what you're trying to say. But the difference is really small.
If the ressist were 30% you would gain "more" from toughness as it would mitigrate 70dmg instead Meaning adding ressist in this case is the better option. I agree.
But with armor it comes to a point were it gets deminsihing returns due to weaponskill and armordebuffs. And by that point you gain about the same amount mitigration by adding toughness instead. And it's really hard to pin point were that point is. But i'm fairly confident that it's in the 80-90% armor mitigration somwere.

Gotcha,

So currently @t3 atm, armor would outperform toughness then... since we are using lvl 29 armor pieces on technically tier 4 characters. I know my unbuffed Chosen only has 2400 armor... So this should be increased so that I am ~ 90%ish.

I forgot to take into consideration diminishing returns. But yeah, I see what you are saying. Eventually adding more armor, wont increase your % all that much... So thats where toughness takes over

[Annaise16]

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I forgot to take into consideration diminishing returns. But yeah, I see what you are saying. Eventually adding more armor, wont increase your % all that much... So thats where toughness takes over

In practice, there are no diminishing returns with armor until you reach a figure of around 120% mitigation because the armor penetration from weapon skill on physical-damage dps classes will almost always reduce the mitigation value below the 75% cap. (At level 40, Sovereign gear + a 660 armor pot will give 120% mitigation. But even then, a slayer with 50% armor penetration will reduce that 120% to 60% mitigation, and so you would still benefit from having extra armor. Armor doesn't incur diminishing returns until the after-penetration value is above 75%.)

The only real reason to spec for toughness over armor is if you want extra mitigation against all damage types. That's a valid choice for front-line tanks who are often being hit by casters.

With regard to the order of mitigation, mitigation due to toughness occurs first, then absorption, then armor.

[navis]

you should think which damge your taking you want to mitigate.
if the main dps killing you is a WE then armour won't help a lot only wounds will give you more time
if it's morale damage then armour nor toughness will help
auto attack damage gets reduced by toughness + armor
there is a lot of abilities out there so... sometims wounds is best.

[roadkillrobin]

@Annaise16 Yes armor still have an effect up to around 150-160 Armor mitigration. But the more you get post a cerain vallue toughness talismans per talisman give about the same amount as armour would. And toughness workin on all dmg types make it a better investment. On light armor classes you can stack as much armor as possible without this ever happening. But on tanks and even on WP/DoK/RP you can reach this amount. I think full out toughness talismans gave you a vallue of something like 15% Reduction on averege. And theres a point after worst armor debuff and 50% armor pen that stacking full out armor talises no longer gives you 15% physical mitigration and thats when toughness gets better.

[Keyser]

@Annaise16 Yes armor still have an effect up to around 150-160 Armor mitigration. But the more you get post a cerain vallue toughness talismans per talisman give about the same amount as armour would. And toughness workin on all dmg types make it a better investment. On light armor classes you can stack as much armor as possible without this ever happening. But on tanks and even on WP/DoK/RP you can reach this amount. I think full out toughness talismans gave you a vallue of something like 15% Reduction on averege. And theres a point after worst armor debuff and 50% armor pen that stacking full out armor talises no longer gives you 15% physical mitigration and thats when toughness gets better.

How did you come up with the number 15%? The relative mitigation coming from toughness is depending on how much dmg you take. I know you wrote "average" but even with that addition it is very bold to guess such a relative number, isnt it?

The numbers from Annaise16 seem to be reasonable as I remember them similarly from live. If we apply our rule: The more resistance you have the less important toughness becomes (before the armor hardcap and after armor penetration/debuffs), I do not really see the point where toughness gets better. In theory it is true what you are saying. But given the numbers from Annaise16 Armor is always better in practice.

you should think which damge your taking you want to mitigate.
if the main dps killing you is a WE then armour won't help a lot only wounds will give you more time
if it's morale damage then armour nor toughness will help
auto attack damage gets reduced by toughness + armor
there is a lot of abilities out there so... sometims wounds is best.

Even against WE armor is the best alternative. Theres only one ability from WE which ignores your armor completely. Thats it. And it is pretty "simple" to defend yourself against that as you only have to turn around.

The only reason you should stack toughness or wounds is because you are mostly running in a warband in orvr and want to defend yourself against Sorcs/BWs/Magus/Engis. For everyone else who wants defensive talis, armor is the primary stat.

[sn3jk]

basics:

tooltip dps+weapon dps+(offensive stat-toughness) = damage

damage*armor=total damage

40% mitigation from armor in this example is equal to 0,6

So while toughness lowers the damage of all attacks and spell, armor/resistance lowers the total damage by a percentage.

What is best is another question though, generally speaking armor is more beneficial because of the pressure of mdps and the ease at which spells can be avoided by breaking LoS etc.
If you are running in a bombgroup toughness might be better because of all the sorcs/bws, and likewise if you are facing meleetrains armor is going to be better.

It's a lot of factors at play here, attackers offensive stats, weapon skill, buffs, debuffs etc etc

[Shadowgurke]

With regard to the order of mitigation, mitigation due to toughness occurs first, then absorption, then armor.

Can anybody confirm this? We've had several different interpretation of the order of mitigation