[Engineer] [Poll] Fixing the three worst tactics for T4

[Penril]

The problem with buffing some classes is that, usually, people suggest changing a tactic. And as we all know, there are only 4 slots. I was aware of this but, since this thread was named "Fixing the three worst tactics"...

I think it could work as a 14 point skill, say 10 sec duration with a 20 sec CD. For example, Phosphorous Shells:

"You blast your enemy with phosporous ammo, dealing X Corporeal damage to them. The victim and all enemies within 20 feet of them will also suffer Y Corporeal damage over 10 seconds, and deal Z% less critical damage".

But, that is a discussion for a different thread. This one is for tactics. I just wanted to post that suggestion before i forgot it, and see what you guys thought. Carry on

[Genisaurus]

There are some good ideas in this thread. I would advise holding onto them.

What the Engineer class needs, IMO, is not a few fixed tactics and abilities, but an overhaul. As Penril points out, there are only 4 tactic slots, and the Engi already has about 6 tactics that are must-haves.

That being said, by all means brainstorm some better tactics. I do believe that for all classes, every tactic should be desirable and able to compete for a slot. I would perhaps like to see the overhaul come first so that the tactics can be designed accordingly. But don't sell yourselves short by trying to propose something you think will pass without much of a fight, like adjusting a few tactics, adding an armor debuff, and calling it a day.

[Penril]

You are correct Geni. Even if there are only 4 tactic slots, ideally Engies (and all classes actually) should have 24 decent/good tactics. So there is really no harm in proposing changes to those that are underperforming or just outright bad.

I believe the approach to the overhaul should be something like this:

- Identify those tactics that are mandatory (for example, Well-oiled Machine).
- Integrate part of the tactic to the Mechanic. In this case, all your turrets are deployed instantly (but still cost AP).
- Change the tactic to something else. WoM, for example, would no longer let you deploy turrets instantly (since it is already a part of your mechanic). It would reduce the AP cost to 0 AND give some other benefit (increase turret damage by 15%? just an example).
- Finally, fix/change the other tactics/skills that are bad.

Just my 2 cents. Can't wait for T4 so we can open up a thread with a bazillion suggestions.

[Telen]

Armour stacking is the real issue. Because of the amount of debuffs stacking armour became a given. Dumbing down gearing and screwing over the engie in the process.

[Rebuke]

Another difficulty that is added is that Grenadier and Tinkerer go hand-in-hand as they both are catered heavily to RvR battles whilst Rifleman is not. The same goes for Marauders; Savagery and Brutality are single target small scale battle mastery paths. Monstrosity is the go-to spec for rvr. The difference between mara and engie is that Monstrosity is actually really good, rifleman is not.

Rifleman is not only non-viable due to armor stacking, but because of long setup times aswell.

[Karast]

You are correct Geni. Even if there are only 4 tactic slots, ideally Engies (and all classes actually) should have 24 decent/good tactics. So there is really no harm in proposing changes to those that are underperforming or just outright bad.

I believe the approach to the overhaul should be something like this:

- Identify those tactics that are mandatory (for example, Well-oiled Machine).
- Integrate part of the tactic to the Mechanic. In this case, all your turrets are deployed instantly (but still cost AP).
- Change the tactic to something else. WoM, for example, would no longer let you deploy turrets instantly (since it is already a part of your mechanic). It would reduce the AP cost to 0 AND give some other benefit (increase turret damage by 15%? just an example).
- Finally, fix/change the other tactics/skills that are bad.

Just my 2 cents. Can't wait for T4 so we can open up a thread with a bazillion suggestions.

I agree exactly.

What I really hope we can avoid though when it comes to adjusting tactics is to avoid making more super / must slot tactics. That is something that Mythic devs did, and it really hurt build diversity, even if it helped the career slightly more overall.

As far as well oiled machine goes there was a really good suggestion back from live. I unfortunately do not remember who came up with it, but it went something like this.

Make WOM core. Change the WOM tactic to increase the range of the turret dps buff, extra ammo tactic, and tracer rounds tactics from 20ft to 40ft.

It is a tactic that works nicely in all specs, which is important for core tactics. It is strong but not a must slot, and could find a home in many different builds. It also is similar to the current WOM in that it makes the mechanic more easy to manage, which is what a lot of the good core tactics do on other professions.

[Nameless]

giving the turrent some area damange reduction aura for nearby allies is good idea to add additional utility to the class. Tactics changes are no-go since the class already got plenty decent tactics to choose from.
The problem is that engies took too many blanked nerfs and after some global balancing changes they werent accordingly changed to blend into the new meta.

Adding to the turret 15% damange reduction aura and making WoM core are 2 of the must do things to do. After that there should be some fixes about armor stacking and dok group cleanse and the class will become much more usefull. Tweaking 4-5 skills and the class could be competative even for 6v6 \some dots do hilarious low amount of dmg\

[Glorian]

...
Adding to the turret 15% damange reduction aura and making WoM core are 2 of the must do things to do. After that there should be some fixes about armor stacking and dok group cleanse and the class will become much more usefull. Tweaking 4-5 skills and the class could be competative even for 6v6 \some dots do hilarious low amount of dmg\

I will use this as my elevator pitch for the engie changes.
Overall good ideas. And I'm eager to adress them in detail once the balance forums open.

[gamlith]

What the Engineer class needs, IMO, is not a few fixed tactics and abilities, but an overhaul. As Penril points out, there are only 4 tactic slots, and the Engi already has about 6 tactics that are must-haves.

Perhaps the tactic "well-oiled Machine" should just be standard to the class and apply to all constructs i.e. keg, lightning rod, turrets, Magnet, etc. Would save a space and make engineer in general more mobile.

[Kallah]

I agree that WoM should be core, or at least that you can cast the turret while moving.

I'm not concerned about tactics I mean the 3 from tinkerer are great, same happens with coordinate strike, FC, MA, Hollow points even Tangling Wire can be used, there are a lot of good tactics for eng.

What I would do is something fancy with Phosporous Shells and Sticky Bomb. Keep the weak long dot but change the second part to "if it is removed increase your CD by 5 secs" or "if it is removed deals a high amount of damage to the one that remove the hex". Something different from the typical heal debuff or things like that, then the healers will have to think if its worth to remove the dots or not (imagine a dok receiving damage from 6 dots that shouldnt be removed...) obviously it should be mirror to the magus.

Another skill that need some love is strafing run. It is instant, but the delay since the animation start until the plane arrives is annoying.

Just to finish, I think that all the skills from the grenadier tree should be casted while moving (You are throwing grenades, it is easier than aim with a bow, you can do that while moving ).

So we would have 3 quite different ways to play the class. A short range tree, a long and static but with high dmg tree and a medium range tree but with high movility.

I really enjoy my rifleman/grenadier engi, but the class will need some love once T4 arrive.