I disagree. Certainly, a BG won't be seeing numbers as high as a DPS might, but that doesn't mean that BGs can't do high effective damage. The BG is a unique tank in that it has access to a spammable outgoing heal debuff as well as a tactic which makes them unable to be detaunted. These, combined with the right gear and complementary tactics (the cookie cutter 2h build you linked in your initial reply is a good example of such a spec at RR70), allow the BG to do very worthwhile effective DPS on cloth healers. The AM, in particular, is arguably the easiest healer in the game to kill once cornered, so the threshold for effective DPS against one is already relatively low. Also, RPs can't cleanse hexes, so BGs can drop every debuff in their arsenals on them with impunity. These facts make BGs uniquely suited to a cloth healer harrier role, which is arguably the main focus of the standard BG sword and board build.TenTonHammer wrote:Firstly no 2h tank will ever compete with a real dps in dmg even with FO
Where DPS is concerned, the combination of Soul Killer and Unstoppable Fury effectively quadrupling DPS on healers (doubled once due to reduced healing and doubled again due to the inability to halve received damage via detaunt) enable the BG to pose a sustained existential threat to cloth healers with an effectiveness that doesn't exist on any other tank in the game, and which certainly rivals the detaunted output of a dedicated DPS class.
These tools are the reason that I think Crimson Death's damage may eventually need to be looked at down the road, since abilities with higher base damage only exacerbate the BG's already formidable (in my opinion) damage dealing potential. The only reason that I don't believe this to be a pressing issue is because I don't think the gear is there yet to be able to kill AMs and RPs at will. Perhaps the existence of DPS-leaning scenario sets do allow for this possibility, but since I've not seen BGs with such power here, I'm inclined to think such a setup isn't presently possible.
Finally, I concede that such a build is likely to result in a BG with compromised defenses. But, considering the likelihood that a typical WE is yet squishier than such a hypothetical BG, and that no other class that I can think of would be able to bring such a powerful outgoing heal debuff to the table, this BG could feasibly have a place in a successful premade as a combination offtank and supporting/utility DPS. Especially given Order's tendency to bring RP + WP in premades because of their synergy, the BG's outgoing heal debuff is invaluable for dealing with the RP element.
It depends on what you're looking for, here. Sure, the BO can steal initiative when it gets lucky, and it has more direct synergy with its abilities, but you're not giving the BG enough credit here. Soul Killer's outgoing heal debuff effectively doubles all damage on targets being healed by an afflicted healer. No tank in the game can pressure healers as effectively as a BG. This is just a fact. What people don't seem to realize is that it's also very possible for a BG to do good damage while applying this pressure. Crimson Death's high delve allows such a hypothetical BG to do relatively high damage to a taunted cloth healer with no downside other than the initial tradeoff of choosing to run a 2h over a sword and board, and the 10% incoming crit chance debuff synergizes just as well with allied DPS as would the BO's initiative steal, but with higher consistency.TenTonHammer wrote:Now how does a BG fit into a 1-3-2 rdps grp which has classes like Shammy and sorc for whom chosen resist debuff or BO iniative steal + WAAAGH! is better?
As for the Chosen's resist aura and how it synergizes with a 1-3-2 RDPS group, I freely concede that a BG can't offer anything quite as useful as that, besides the heal debuff. Clearly a 1-3-2 RDPS group would not be an ideal place for a BG to be, but a 2h BG built to do damage and pressure healers would be right at home in a melee train. Just because you can think of a group where a DPS-oriented BG wouldn't be welcome doesn't mean that a welcoming group doesn't exist in the first place.
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Bringing my post back on-topic, I cite my earlier argument with respect to the viability of DPS BGs as a reason to eventually consider lowering Crimson Death's base damage a little, and I still think that its debuff duration should be extended in order to increase its uptime and utility. 2h tanks are still tanks, and as such they need to be able to bring some utility to an organized group beyond Guard, and this is one area in which the BG can be tweaked to accomplish this.
P.S. Sorry for the wall of text. Hopefully I didn't stray too far from the matter at hand while attemping to contribute something meaningful to the dialogue.
