[Feedback] Engineer / Magus Changes

[Tankbeardz]

MDPS are much more vulnerable to compositional issues in small scale (lack of Guard / abundance of enemy RDPS). This is something I am looking into.

I would disagree on this. If there are 2 groups of 6...a melee train with tanks and healers wins, hands-down, with equally skilled players on both sides. This lends itself well to small scale play in the lakes or SCs. The exception to this is pugging in SCs, where RDPS has a huge advantage over unorganized groups / teamplay.

In RVR, range dominates since you can apply so much damage from a distance. A 12 man MDPS group will struggle to make it to a 12 man with an RDPS advantage, unless they get the drop.

Perhaps....this is how it should be.

[peterthepan3]

Few things to note:

1) Any class in RR100 gear/LOTD Jewels could do decent DPS. Heck, DPS Zealots could. RR100 gear won't be implemented (and I'm hoping Aza won't implement LOTD weapons - at least in their OP state)

2) The Riflemen you played with on live that were tearing **** up were probably: a) rr98-100; b) focusing badly geared players/bad players. It's indisputable that against competent players, a Magus and Engineer were /lol'd at.

3) To get the most out of your rotation as a Magus, you need to have your elemental debuff up. This is from the pet. For a Magus to deal its maximum amount of damage, it also needs a spirit resistance debuff up - either via Chillwind or Glean Magic. So put these two abilities on your buffhead (I think the pet elemental debuff is called Daemonic Consumption/Fire), and when you see them appear on you anticipate a burst rotation.

4) The damage buff was necessary because now the class can fill in (somewhat, not really against competitive players I'd still maintain) for a SH/Sorc. All classes ought to be able to fill-in a spot in a group.

5) Why should a class that has to stay still for 16 seconds and remain stationary not be the most potent RDPS? Sorcerers have enjoyed this position since release, yet their burst rotation/playstyle is incredibly easy to pull-off. This notion that the Magus ought not to be 'as good as the SH/Sorc because they have lots of CC!11' needs to be done away with: they're a ranged damage class, as per their given archetype.

6) The Magus requires a bit of thought behind their burst rotation and several factors to take into consideration - plus correct usage of a pet. This is why there is an abundance of Sorcerers and SHs, and still - even with these changes - only 2 or 3 ST Magi that stand out. No class is very hard to play in this game, but there are varying degrees of complexity. Difficulty/risk (standing still, exposing yourself) ought to reward you.

6) It always seems to be the same people complaining monotonously; people that play Marauders, Sorcerers, DoKs, Slayers, Bright Wizards. I can't help but find it somewhat comical, especially when you consider that even now these classes pretty much reign supreme end-game.

7) I don't know why so many people still haven't adjusted to the classes in their current state. Fusion knows how to handle Engineers now, and I honestly think it is simply a case of readjusting your stance and manner when dealing with these classes. Focus the pet (as Aza said, it's survivability has been reduced), force the Magus/Engineer to move = gg.

8) The ST rotation was nerfed (Bolt is now back on a 10 second CD), so the Magus can only put out the hurt every 10 seconds or so. Even with the FRF 50% crit dmg multiplier change, you should not be dying to a Magus that doesn't have Bolt available if you are grouped with competent players.

9) The Magus is reliant on having a tank punting targets, to coincide with its burst rotation, to kill them. I am talking competitively, as pug/disorganised play doesn't concern me and ought not feature when talking balance. I tested the class with Riftbeardz - a very experienced veteran Magus - in several 6v6s, and even with the changes you need to be METICULOUS with your rotation if you want to kill anyone. Good players will be mobile, and keep moving around, and as a Magus you are forced to hard summon the pet when Resummon is off CD, so you are losing stacks: this is the tradeoff. I am sure he can testify to this.

10) Resummon is on a 20 second cooldown. If you use the instasummon tactic, you are either giving up a damage tactic - thus nerfing your potential damage output - or replacing it with the range on change abilities tactic.

11) The only spec that an Engineer and Magus have that can really rival other DPS now is Havoc and Rifleman. The other specs - while cool and fun to play with the new changes, for sure - will not really threaten anyone. In addition, Surging Power is now in the Havoc tree so the burst from Demonology will be less (Infernal Blast could crit for 1.2k+ on debuffed targets with the tactic). I reiterate: you should not be dying to a Change or Demo Magus, and if you are it is most definitely a L2P problem.

12) The vast majority of these complaints seem to stem from disorganised/pug play. There is a reason that, even now, most premades still prefer to run with other RDPS classes whilst roaming. Sure, you have one or two that are using a Magus/Engi, but what are you bringing that a well-played Bright Wizard or Shadow Warrior couldn't bring?

13) Shadow Warrior has access to a semi-spammable inc heal debuff and amazing sustained damage/spike via M2. It has a plethora of escape tools, too. Yes, the class has Festering Arrow, but in order for it it encroach upon the stationary RDPS territory of the Magus it ought to have to invest a lot for it. You will not see a Change Magus remotely rivaling a well-played Squig Herder as a mobile RDPS, so the Magus/Engineer should still be the top stationary DPS.

14) To get the optimal Magus ST spec (RoR.builders - Magus) you need to be RR60, whereas other classes (as mentioned previously and on other threads) can pretty much get all of their goodies relatively quick.

[Tankbeardz]

Missing the point. Festerbomb was brought down for effort/reward and counterplay reasons. Festerbomb is a limited duration state with very poor telegraphing. The problem was inability to react to it because it isn't obvious enough. The conditions are m2 and VoN and those are visible to the SW alone unless he is targeted.

The daemon isn't there to remind me what spec the Magus is in. The daemon is there to tell me whether or not he has a given set of buffs active, the mechanic buff tells me how much and the daemon location shows me where he needs to be if he wants to have any kind of usefulness. If that isn't obvious enough for you and a marked contrast with Festerbomb then I don't know what is

I would have to agree with most of this argument. The final buff for SW on live made them incredibly OP since there was, literally, no warning except for the fact that you were knocked down...from range. At least with a BW/Sorc...you can usually tell when you are getting blasted because you can see and hear the effect for things like Boiling Blood and Word of Pain.

[Sulorie]

You can easily replace the (in comparison) useless 25% range tactic for instant re-summon and negate all static disadvantages, maintain your turret buffs and be fully mobile. People did it on live and they do it here.

Bolt/Snipe cooldown shouldn't be reduced to 5sec because other caster rdps have a 10sec cd between bursts too. The gap between end and start of a new rotation is just 5sec, the damage interval is still twice as long.

[Kragg]

Why should a class that has to stay still for 16 seconds and remain stationary not be the most potent RDPS? Sorcerers have enjoyed this position since release, yet their burst rotation/playstyle is incredibly easy to pull-off. This notion that the Magus ought not to be 'as good as the SH/Sorc because they have lots of CC!11' needs to be done away with: they're a ranged damage class, as per their given archetype.

Exactly. Glad there is at least one person who agrees with me!

[Sigimund]

You can easily replace the (in comparison) useless 25% range tactic for instant re-summon and negate all static disadvantages, maintain your turret buffs and be fully mobile. People did it on live and they do it here.

Even with that tactic you lose 4 stacks every time you rebuild your turret. You can either maintain your turret buffs or be fully mobile but not both.

[peterthepan3]

You can easily replace the (in comparison) useless 25% range tactic for instant re-summon and negate all static disadvantages, maintain your turret buffs and be fully mobile. People did it on live and they do it here.

the 'fully mobile' part did get me, to be honest. the 25% range is not useless at all, range is king in PvP. you can't maintain your turret buffs as you lose 4 stacks upon respawning. Honestly don't need advice on playing the class, and I think it's an affront to the people who do play it to suggest you can play the class with full mobility - assuming you want to do damage.

[Ravai]

You can easily replace the (in comparison) useless 25% range tactic for instant re-summon and negate all static disadvantages, maintain your turret buffs and be fully mobile. People did it on live and they do it here.

Bolt/Snipe cooldown shouldn't be reduced to 5sec because other caster rdps have a 10sec cd between bursts too. The gap between end and start of a new rotation is just 5sec, the damage interval is still twice as long.

I get the fact people didnt like dieing at 10-15%hp at crazy range, it was unnecessary and the fact it was on a 5sec cd with the range it had only amplified a skill that even without the huge castable distance was very strong, from a solo perspective I can empathise with peoples frustration.

However, its still the bread and butter magus skill (I sound like a broken record here but snipe is not as important for engi), flickering red fire with the crit damage buff is not even close to the potency of boc or gunblast still.

Few disadvantages I've come accross with FRF

- its about 500dmg on average less than bolt of change with a crit, its also not undefendable (tried with undefendable tactic, just lost too much with any of the other tactics missing) it hurts the boc rotation too much.
- oh and if it doesnt crit it hits the same as a chillwind dot tick with a crit (I did a non crit on a sw and I barely saw his hp move)
- highest crit i saw was around 2k on a slayer, then nothing close to that on anything else, he was unguarded + full rage)
Cant put my finger on whether its just the lack of crit a magus has compared to sorc(+less crit dmg, no auto attack like engi to compensate) or the flight time being slightly off, it just doesnt kill anything other than ungrped/unhealed pugs which would be killed way faster if I was playing a sorc. We still just play off boc every 10 seconds to put together a potentially dangerous rotation as anything else seems fluff even with full stacks.

I feel you've already put enough of your time into this class aza and to be frank, other than reinstating the 5sec boc and reducing the range to that of the rest of the havoc skills when you are able too with client control or buffing frf yet again, then I have no other solutions.

I guess my question would be is your intent to bring magus inline with sorc dps if its specced in the havoc tree and has its purpose built around this goal, or do you want it more utility/support orientated which it does well at also. When you play a sorc/bw with pretty much no limitions on your dps aslong as you have a healer and then play a magus which has so many drawbacks and potential counters its crazy when you put the 2 side by side to compare, magus is weaker yet still has all these drawbacks on its damage. the only positive being the range which carries the drawback of being stationary to attain.

the 16second stationary setup, 3second cast boc on a 10sec cd is very obvious to players and should be a huge red flag. yet...
- you can be pressured to move and loose stacks and all dps (a moving magus does fluff damage)
- kill pet, rip 16seconds
- focused mind is the only morale to be aware of (easily added to buffhead), no random 2k+ instant damage from morales.
- chaining ap pots for dps is mandatory if you want to be efficient on magus (not just using them with flee), no class skill to regain it instantly, your also fixed on tactic slots so cant run devour energy.
- the aoe knockdown whilst good, removes all stacks and dps potential (pet dieing and all that)
- no silence (killing half decent healers is almost impossible without this on a rdps) that doesnt mean magus should have a silence or a heal debuff just emphasizing my point here, target selection is everything on this class even with 5sec boc. It mostly involves recycling the same targets over and over again.

Although I've been maining the class recently please view this as unbiased and not as a whine post, its really not , I genuinly felt the class was in a good place and for the first time could hold up a dps slot by itself even against competant players, now it just feels inefficient as a sole dps compared to the alternatives.

TLDR: Magus is still bolt of change reliant

[Whitesands]

I tried the changes to the single target spec magus since the change in the tactics. The differences are really large. The new single target magus feels greatly reduced in power and threat potential. I really think the 5 second Bolt of Change (BOC) should be returned. The number of components needed to be at full potency more than make up for a 5 second BOC. I can't see the justification of the complaints that were cited as the reason for the reduction. It does seem that the root must be individuals who aren't able or willing to have a magus as a threat, but only as a renown piñata. I don't see sacrificing one spec in order to have real differences with the other two specs a justification. The single target spec, under the old 5 second BOC, was the only spec where a magus could effectively kill. That has been removed. The changes with the other specs, while interesting are not killing specs. only distractions. If that is the intent for the class, it's sad. The magus has again been pushed to the periphery. Return the 5 second BOC, whatever is needed to justify the change should be done. Long range, for the sake of long range, has no value if you can't kill in the spec intended to do so.

[Azarael]

@above posts: As previously mentioned, our long-term goal has to be to break the reliance on Bolt of Change. Dropping BoC to 5 seconds not only breaks the mirroring with Snipe, it makes the class very much revolve around Bolt of Change and means that there is much less downtime in the burst cycle. The extra range also has implications for escaping the damage by moving away from the Magus, if the CD is lower.

We need to acknowledge that there are real problems with the range the skill has at the moment and do all that we can to make the ST Magus performant without resorting to Bolt of Change. If we absolutely MUST use Bolt of Change, then we need to drop its range, which needs client control, but this should be a last-ditch option, and we should try to improve other skills first.

Mutating Blue Fire was always an instant skill, right?