[Discussion/Feedback] The Armor Project

[roadkillrobin]

no, the mechanic might not be too complex. But the balance that the current armour mechanics result in, and possible changes to 12 classes versus 12 other classes balance is as messy as it can get.

There is a reason why balance is often aimed at some specific ability of some specific class, so that you make minor changes at a time, otherwise the results might become too unpredictable, and the resulting balance even worse than the previous balance. Changing the entire way armour works or modifying some new values could possibly turn the entire T4 endgame into a mess with some classes becoming possibly too OP (beyond the Powerlevel of current WL/Mara) and others becoming a new laughingstock (e.g. Magus/Engi during last years of live).

Yes ofc. But the sugestion here is basicly to buff WS wich resaults in armor being less effective. I don't think thats a very good idea in isolation. The core problem is that burst dmg is so high that initive and toughness are massivly underpeforming.
I think a buff to armor pen would also need to look at the cheap crit stacking, wich is the core problem that makes Tough and Initive really bad stats to invest in.

[th3gatekeeper]

It lowers the amount you bypass, but you still bypass the same %. Bypassing 20% of the armor of someone at 4k armor vs 2k armor for instance. Literally half the amount of armor bypassed, but you should see a higher amoumt of DPS gained. Again though, I haven't tested the numbers on a non-capped target.

This is actually false... When you bypass 20% of armor at 2k. They have <50% mitigation, so you are bypassing a mere 10% compared to someone at 4k who is closer to maybe 85% where you are then bypassing 17%. This is clearly seen in the results I posted.

"@ 2400 armor (~55%)
Attacked with 314 weapon skill = 266 damage.
Attacked with 434 weapon skill = 288 damage.

@4200 armor
314 WS = 112 damage.
434 WS = 148 damage."

So the "higher amount of DPS gained" is actually on a HEAVIER armor target.... 266 - 288 damage is a SMALL <10% increase in damage where as 112 -> 148 is more like a 20% increase in damage.

The issue I have is how easy it is to get 600 more armor, which basically "moots out" over 200 weapon skill... So the "counter stat" to armor doesnt do crap.... Which is why people stack it over anything else....

I think it would be best to start out small and to nerf the effectiveness of armour pots. Rather than every man and his dog running around with a 660+ armour pot, if we could somehow push players more towards using their abilities (for example the Black Orcs Tuffer N’ Nails, more people using the Da Greenest bellow, hell even making people actually slot We’z Bigger. At the moment a lot of these skills are made redundant by armour pots unless you’re spec’d for it and even then the armour bonus it offers over basic 660+ armour pot is nothing to write home about) that boosts their own and the groups armour values.

Unfortunately I have no idea how you could do this other than removing high end armour pots (the 800+ variety) and/or making them much shorter in duration.

Make squishy classes squishy again!

I like this idea, but it doesnt solve the armor stacking problem... All that does is shift everyone lower on the armor values, which STILL makes armor > other stats and weapon skill a VERY sub par damage stat....

This would remove a lot of AH trade too, which means there will be less AH fee. The AH fee is important as a gold sink for the economy to lower inflation. Removing content from an already not inventive and very simple designed crafting system is imo not a good idea. The buffs should be better adjusted.

This too. It removes AH activity and "gold sinks" - which IMO heal pots and other pots like STR and who knows... this may encourage more "respecs" and debolsters... One reason I dont debolster is the 5G cost each time... You do that a few times and it adds up!!! Way more than 600 armor pots do.....

no, the mechanic might not be too complex. But the balance that the current armour mechanics result in, and possible changes to 12 classes versus 12 other classes balance is as messy as it can get.

There is a reason why balance is often aimed at some specific ability of some specific class, so that you make minor changes at a time, otherwise the results might become too unpredictable, and the resulting balance even worse than the previous balance. Changing the entire way armour works or modifying some new values could possibly turn the entire T4 endgame into a mess with some classes becoming possibly too OP (beyond the Powerlevel of current WL/Mara) and others becoming a new laughingstock (e.g. Magus/Engi during last years of live).

Yes ofc. But the sugestion here is basicly to buff WS wich resaults in armor being less effective. I don't think thats a very good idea in isolation. The core problem is that burst dmg is so high that initive and toughness are massivly underpeforming.
I think a buff to armor pen would also need to look at the cheap crit stacking, wich is the core problem that makes Tough and Initive really bad stats to invest in.

This is odd, someone posted earlier saying initiative is one of the BEST stats to stack. You say its the worst. Also wouldnt MORE crit mean that initiative is even better?

I think the reason why tough and initiatve are bad to invest in, is because the relative value of armor. You have squishy classes like "casters" that are running around in 3k+ armor with talis and pots.... which is just silly as they dont REALLY give up a TON to do that...

Its why almost all healers run armor... Why shouldnt they be running willpower as a primary? stacking willpower like everyone else stacks str/int etc. Many healers I talk to dont even bother with willpower and do initiatve/armor stacking for survival.

I mean the "ideal" solution would be to rework armor pots and armor talis, to grant an increased % of your base armor. Or, changed to be a "counter" to armor pen, like a "-ARP" stat we have on some weapons and rings... But what is just silly (to me) is you have "squishy" classes able to achieve high levels of tankiness via stacking armor... And no way to really "counter" that armor

[spikespiegel84]

Capping max armor differently for each career?
Now is 4k general, all above if armor is debuffed. Correct?
Keep 4 k for tanks, 3k medium armor, 2,5k light,
2k cloth.
Numbers are random, not my job to balance it. Just to give a clearer sight.

[Aurandilaz]

Capping max armor differently for each career?
Now is 4k general, all above if armor is debuffed. Correct?
Keep 4 k for tanks, 3k medium armor, 2,5k light,
2k cloth.
Numbers are random, not my job to balance it. Just to give a clearer sight.

I was thinking something similar
say
80% arm mit cap for heavy armour
65% for medium armour
50% for light armour & clothies (just how much Kevlar plates can an AM stack inside their nightgown? )

[spikespiegel84]

Sounds reasonable. But separate light and cloth. Wanna go in war with bare chest and feathers? Be my guest, but bleed for me.

[roadkillrobin]

Initiative is terrible man. It can't reduce flat crit modifiers and have mad deminishing returns once you hit 10% crit reduction from it. Armor is gonna function pretty much all the time and is a relative cheap investment in comparison. But again, the problem isn't due to Armor being uber but the other stats being bad. A buff to weaponskill would require a nerf to something else. And like I said. the core problem is that the game is burst heavy and Wounds/Armor/Resist only defensive stat that have some kinda consistancy against it. This game wasn't design so you would run around with 30% Crit chance without loosing anything else.

[Aurandilaz]

An innovative approach would be to lock ingoing and outgoing crit into the same stat:
you have 20% crit chance = you have 20% chance to be critted
you have meagre 5% crit chance = your chance to be critted is 5%

Now this would make tanks tankier and less deadlier (not sure if good or bad?) and make glasscannon actually feel like glasscannons?
Alternatively to make it more confusing, have Initiative still add to the Chance to Receive Critical Damage, essentially becoming a MUST HAVE instead of armour on classes that run with high crit, if they want to live longer. (which would kinda be bad for my Witch Elf but whatever)

Or alternatively, your offensive crit rate would corrode your Initiative stat, and if you want to balance it out, you would need to start stacking Initiative instead of Armour in order to live longer.

Just throwing out ideas, don't take it too seriously.

In the long run, IMO the most interesting approach would be where the players have to balance between THREE defensive stats, Arm - Ini - Toughness; to achieve a certain level of defensiveness, and if somehow such a system will be properly balanced, the optimal setup would not involved full armour tali stacking, but rather a combination of the three. In my dreams, yeah.

[Daknallbomb]

Capping max armor differently for each career?
Now is 4k general, all above if armor is debuffed. Correct?
Keep 4 k for tanks, 3k medium armor, 2,5k light,
2k cloth.
Numbers are random, not my job to balance it. Just to give a clearer sight.

I was thinking something similar
say
80% arm mit cap for heavy armour
65% for medium armour
50% for light armour & clothies (just how much Kevlar plates can an AM stack inside their nightgown? )

Say that to an engi with 4500 Amor! The whine will be The greatest after keg " Nerf '

[Aurandilaz]

Capping max armor differently for each career?
Now is 4k general, all above if armor is debuffed. Correct?
Keep 4 k for tanks, 3k medium armor, 2,5k light,
2k cloth.
Numbers are random, not my job to balance it. Just to give a clearer sight.

I was thinking something similar
say
80% arm mit cap for heavy armour
65% for medium armour
50% for light armour & clothies (just how much Kevlar plates can an AM stack inside their nightgown? )

Say that to an engi with 4500 Amor! The whine will be The greatest after keg " Nerf '

why would a class that snipes its enemies from 150 feet away need that much armour?
What they gonna do, charge at the enemy and hit them with their guns at 5 feet range?

[Daknallbomb]

Well Wy should a healer have 4 k Amor?

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