[BO] Da Toughest

[dansari]

I agree that option 2 would be a solid change. It would provide unique group utility for the BO.

I'm assuming the effect wouldn't stack? So if you're running two BOs you couldn't get two separate wounds buffs?

At the risk of sounding ignorant, is that too strong though? If Dabbart is correct in that more points in middle tree grants a more effective Da Toughest, how high of a wounds buff can you expectedly get? In comparison to other wounds buffs for example, Sigmar's Grace for WP grants 50 wounds from the tooltip, is on a 2s cast and 5s cd, with 13 points invested in the tree. BO would be able to supply 18 less than that as a passive, base buff on twice the cooldown, with no cast time, albeit on a 25% proc. But one's actually a healer and the other is a tank.

I like option two, but I think it should be tweaked. Something like:
Decrease to 20 wounds
Or
Decrease proc chance to 10%
Or
Increase duration by 5s

[Toldavf]

I agree that option 2 would be a solid change. It would provide unique group utility for the BO.

I'm assuming the effect wouldn't stack? So if you're running two BOs you couldn't get two separate wounds buffs?

At the risk of sounding ignorant, is that too strong though? If Dabbart is correct in that more points in middle tree grants a more effective Da Toughest, how high of a wounds buff can you expectedly get? In comparison to other wounds buffs for example, Sigmar's Grace for WP grants 50 wounds from the tooltip, is on a 2s cast and 5s cd, with 13 points invested in the tree. BO would be able to supply 18 less than that as a passive, base buff on twice the cooldown, with no cast time, albeit on a 25% proc. But one's actually a healer and the other is a tank.

I like option two, but I think it should be tweaked. Something like:
Decrease to 20 wounds
Or
Decrease proc chance to 10%
Or
Increase duration by 5s

To answe your question on effect we would have to look at what an increase of wounds means in a group situation. With a guard for instance that wounds buff can be made to go twice as far most of the time. Something that also should be considered is the slightly increased resistance it provides to attacks that measure a targets hp like fell the weak, giloutine, ect.

So there are a few other advantages to note when considering amounts of wounds.

[Collateral]

If you go full toughest tree, which rarely anyone does for some obvious reasons that should also be discussed later, the bellow procs for 42 wounds. Or at least that's what I had when I specced into Can't Hit Me. I think this is still not a huge amount when you consider that kotbs debuffs wounds with aoe by 100.

Maybe consider this, the wounds buff applies only to BO, but it heals the party members by the same amount. If you do it like that, I think you should reduce the wound buff to perhaps 5 seconds, so that you get some utility out of the bellow, healing group members if not constantly at least not every 10 seconds, which means a lot in combat. But still I think this wouldn't be a whole lot of healing, every 5-10 seconds you heal for 420, it just seems meh but it can be tested.

[dansari]

If you go full toughest tree, which rarely anyone does for some obvious reasons that should also be discussed later, the bellow procs for 42 wounds. Or at least that's what I had when I specced into Can't Hit Me. I think this is still not a huge amount when you consider that kotbs debuffs wounds with aoe by 100.

Thanks for that! Obviously playing a BO you have better insight into this than I do. I might actually suggest changing the scaling after reducing the base amount then -- say you start with 20 wounds, but you invest 15 points into the tree? Bump it up to 50 (or whatever is deemed appropriate by algebra). I like that better than getting a base 32 wounds with no investment in the tree. As to your wounds debuff point: fair, but is that with points invested in the tree for knight? Don't destro have their own strong wounds debuffs? Rhetorical questions -- I mainly mean to point out that debuffs are still active use abilities with a cooldown, whereas this is still a base buff to your group on a proc... there's a reason the debuff would be stronger.

Edit: Sorry -- saw your edit. I really disagree. It's not just a 320/420 heal. It'd be a group heal (so you're healing for a total of 1920-2520 with 6 groupmates), as a tank, on a 10s "cooldown" (call it 12-14s to account for rngesus).

[Bozzax]

Spoiler:

Why a group buff (wounds/heal?) that never willl be used?

110-120 ini buff + debuff will always be better

E: Da Biggest will outperform 420 wounds all days of the week

If you have nothing to add to the discussion, don't post.

[Toldavf]

Spoiler:

Why a group buff (wounds/heal?) that never willl be used?

110-120 ini buff + debuff will always be better

And always used over Da Biggest as the reiable ini debuff will hand out far to much crit.

Unless you are referring to the biggest and not a toughest change in which case objection retracted.

Don't reply to posts that don't follow the rules. Ignore them until I moderate them.

[dansari]

Spoiler:

Why a group buff (wounds/heal?) that never willl be used?

110-120 ini buff + debuff will always be better

To allow for a variation of builds, make middle tree better, and make more builds viable, so that maybe the chance for an ini stat steal isn't always better?

Same as above.

[Morf]

Edit: Sorry -- saw your edit. I really disagree. It's not just a 320/420 heal. It'd be a group heal (so you're healing for a total of 1920-2520 with 6 groupmates), as a tank, on a 10s "cooldown" (call it 12-14s to account for rngesus).

Bare in mind 120 ini/tough and willpower from da biggest over the 10/12/14 seconds da toughest procs will provide a greater benefit and outshine it anyway (mitigation,less crits on your group and the increase healing).

Spoiler:

off topic kinda, hopefully sm phantom blade gets similar treatment, similar in the sense that it gets changed to not refresh to provide 100% (or near to) group absorb.

[footpatrol2]

Spoiler:

Issues:

1- Not worth compared to other war bellows.
The Bellows are tied to how strong they are by how many spec points you put into them. So value's you provided are not accurate. At max 13 point da toughest bellow is 48 wounds buff. At max 13 point Brawler it is a 120 stat steal. At max 13 point boss it is a 990 armor buff and 378 resist buff. With this said I think da toughest is lack luster to the other bellows.

2- AP cost to switch the bellow is too high.
I don't think there is a issue with the AP cost. Player's are switching bellows as is currently with 55 AP cost.


3- Low proc chance and requires you to hit enemies
The Proc chance is just as high as the stat steal and there is no issue with that.

4- The buff doesn't refresh itself when active

A minor issue, but still another issue. The wounds buff you receive doesn't refresh itself when active, causing the buff to have some downtime if you're having bad luck after the buff is over, compared to the other bellows that always have a stat steal or a resistance increase active at all times for you and your group.

So from reading this your trying to use da toughest as a clutch save which it kinda isn't? You have to switch it early if you want to try and make use of it. I guess I could see a refreshing of the wounds buff but a heal in addition would be overpowered.

Solutions:

1- Make it usable with another bellow active.
I think this would cause a lot of balance issue's and would be too strong.

2- Buff for all group in 100 feet. This solution could fix the ability but it removes the concept of Da Toughest of being the solo oriented war bellow and removing it's diversity from the other war bellows.
This one has the most promise but I think it would be too overpowered.

3- Make the buff give 15-20% (the numbers need testing of course) amount of parry instead.
This would cause balance issue's. Da toughest tree has the most support to be SnB. BO's do have a parry buff for the entire group which is uncleansable and lasts 30 sec's Quit yer Squabblin m1.

I'd like to make a alternative safe suggestion. The suggestion is a Rollback.

Da toughest bellow wasn't always at 48 wounds buff at max 15 point da toughest tree. It used to be 96 wounds buff when you had max 15 points in da toughest tree. This got changed early in this games history because community perception at the time was that BO's were unkillable with that bellow and mythic responded to the community outcry by nerfing the bellow by 50%. NOTE: This bellow was considered SO STRONG that it was nerfed. I don't think the SM bubble was nerfed when they nerfed da toughest bellow. But I could be wrong on that.

I suggest to return Da toughest bellow back to its 96 wounds buff.

Have da toughest bellow with zero spec points base raised to 64 instead of the current 32 wounds buff and top end to 96 wounds buff instead of 48 wounds buff at max 13 point da toughest.

The boring math on why base 64 from 96

Spoiler:

Low end with zero points current 32
High end with max 13 points current 48
Low end rollback with zero points ?
High end rollback with max 13 points 96

Current low/high = ratio
32/48 = 0.666
Roll back Ratio*high = Low
0.666*96 = 64

Don't use colour fonts, those are for Staff - Penril.

[Bozzax]

Edit: Sorry -- saw your edit. I really disagree. It's not just a 320/420 heal. It'd be a group heal (so you're healing for a total of 1920-2520 with 6 groupmates), as a tank, on a 10s "cooldown" (call it 12-14s to account for rngesus).

Bare in mind 120 ini/tough and willpower from da biggest over the 10/12/14 seconds da toughest procs will provide a greater benefit and outshine it anyway (mitigation,less crits on your group and the increase healing).

Spoiler:

off topic kinda, hopefully sm phantom blade gets similar treatment, similar in the sense that it gets changed to not refresh to provide 100% (or near to) group absorb.

This was the point I was trying to make
"Why a group buff (wounds/heal?) that never willl be used?"

@250 base ini a 100 buff/debuff provides 4% less crits for you and 9% more crits for your enemy

@1000 incoming dps 4% less crits alone = 400 less damage over 10s (average).

Spoiler:

(If you get hit with a 10s Skull Thumper or SM equivalent it quickly becomes x10 better to have 4% less crits vs 420 wounds.)

A 420 bigger health pool to one realm only is a bad idea