[Ironbreaker] Mechanic tweak

[th3gatekeeper]

You are touching on the fundamental design flaw of the IB and the BG...

I have played Knight/Chosen/SM/BG extensively (still yet to play BO, and have a mid tier IB) but the fundamental flaw in both classes is the current grudge/hate mechanic.

With the SM/BO for instance, you can cycle through your stances in just a few GCDs and for the most part, dont have restrictions on what to do, when.

The Knight/Chosen have a similar design (even if you go back to the aura twisting days) there wasnt a huge "build up" time required for the classes to utilize abilities.

For the BG specifically, and maybe the IB is this way too, you have a few GCDs of just trying to build hate/grudges to THEN utilize your abilities. I wrote extensively on this in the BG "feedback" thread only to have it subsequently locked. You can go there to find the details.

The SOLUTION is rather to re-evaluate the mechanic in and of itself and my suggestion was to make them BOTH more dynamic. Right now, you are gaining 5 hate, or 3-10 grudge when someone attacks your DP/OF, or gaining small amounts of grudge/hate when you attack...

Your abilities are broken into basically 3 categories, 2 of which are largely "competitors" to eachother.

Mechanic Builders
Mechanic Scalers
Mechanic Spenders

The problem is, the scalers and spenders are largely "competitors" where you wont be using a scaler or a spender until your "high mechanic" to get the full benefit of them, so you end up spending half your time spamming the "builders" and then are forced to follow a set "rotation" using scalers then spenders without much choice and if you find yourself having spent your mechanic, and yet the situation calls for a spender and you dont have any... or maybe you need a high scaler and dont have it, your SOL where other tanks can get what is needed in 2ish GCDs max...

Ideally what a "rotation" would look like is:
1) builder
2) Scaler
3) Spender
Rinse/repeat.

instead its:
1) buidler
2) builder
3) builder
4) builder
5) Scaler
6) Spender
Rinse/repeat.

(FYI for the BG its basically just "EB for 3 seconds" every time its off CD just to keep mechanic up. So atleast about 40% of your GCD time is just spend channeling EB...

Where most other tanks dont have to waste as much time "building" a mechanic.

This is what makes IB/BG ultimately fail in comparison, especially with short TTK in RVR you dont have any time to "build" things like this.

So the best solution as I see it, would likely be to change the way you build the mechanic overall. There are many ideas you can use... But in the end, you need the ability to use your scalers and spenders within a few short GCDs of combat... The mechanic should be more "akin" to stances. Start with 0, 2 GCDs into the fight have 50-75 mechanic, and can use "scalers" between 25-75 mechanic to ALSO use as "builders" which you would then use some spenders, etc.

So likely something LIKE: "gain 25 mechanic" each "builder". Maybe removing the OF/DP mechanic building, and then adjusting the tiers of "scalers" to:
0: 50% effectiveness
25: 75% effectiveness
50+: Max effectiveness

Something akin to this.

Anyways, I dont know if this is what you intended to get into, but its the ultimate "core" problem of the class and the BG.... spending too much time "building" in combat, which restricts the class too much, and even if the class was more group-centric with its buffs/debuffs it still would fall short due to the wonky mechanic build up.

This is IMO.

[ToXoS]

Damn... I wasn't expecting that. Imo IB is the third fiddle tank on order, doing less damage than Sm and having less utility than kotbs.

I was proposing this so additional tactic choice would IB move either for more damage or for more utility.

Anyway, dont mind the idea if it drive the community mad.

#ibisthenewpounce

Personally I'm ok with your idea.
BG and IB are pretty even.
BG has more debuffs and IB more buffs, I have no idea why IB should not have the same mechanic point gain than BG one.

I guess people are mad because you're already too good with your class

[GodlessCrom]

I'm pretty amazed at all the salt, actually. Volgo is legit one of the nicest players in the game, and he gives out tons of great info on how he plays. A lot of good players never do that, or purposefully mislead other players/devs (not in RoR necessarily, but I have seen it in other games) for whatever stupid reasons. His idea makes sense IMO, and it's not like 2h IB is over running the server with how good it is.

Give us back 4 second cave win, and then maybe it will be OP

[Sulorie]

BG has more debuffs and IB more buffs, I have no idea why IB should not have the same mechanic point gain than BG one.

Albeit both classes have similarities they are designed differently, hence the need to slot a tactic to get the same benefit on mechanic gain. BG on the other side has to spend tactic slots on stuff, where an IB needs no tactic.

[Eathisword]

Spoiler:

you are touching on the fundamental design flaw of the IB and the BG...

I have played Knight/Chosen/SM/BG extensively (still yet to play BO, and have a mid tier IB) but the fundamental flaw in both classes is the current grudge/hate mechanic.

With the SM/BO for instance, you can cycle through your stances in just a few GCDs and for the most part, dont have restrictions on what to do, when.

The Knight/Chosen have a similar design (even if you go back to the aura twisting days) there wasnt a huge "build up" time required for the classes to utilize abilities.

For the BG specifically, and maybe the IB is this way too, you have a few GCDs of just trying to build hate/grudges to THEN utilize your abilities. I wrote extensively on this in the BG "feedback" thread only to have it subsequently locked. You can go there to find the details.

The SOLUTION is rather to re-evaluate the mechanic in and of itself and my suggestion was to make them BOTH more dynamic. Right now, you are gaining 5 hate, or 3-10 grudge when someone attacks your DP/OF, or gaining small amounts of grudge/hate when you attack...

Your abilities are broken into basically 3 categories, 2 of which are largely "competitors" to eachother.

Mechanic Builders
Mechanic Scalers
Mechanic Spenders

The problem is, the scalers and spenders are largely "competitors" where you wont be using a scaler or a spender until your "high mechanic" to get the full benefit of them, so you end up spending half your time spamming the "builders" and then are forced to follow a set "rotation" using scalers then spenders without much choice and if you find yourself having spent your mechanic, and yet the situation calls for a spender and you dont have any... or maybe you need a high scaler and dont have it, your SOL where other tanks can get what is needed in 2ish GCDs max...

Ideally what a "rotation" would look like is:
1) builder
2) Scaler
3) Spender
Rinse/repeat.

instead its:
1) buidler
2) builder
3) builder
4) builder
5) Scaler
6) Spender
Rinse/repeat.

(FYI for the BG its basically just "EB for 3 seconds" every time its off CD just to keep mechanic up. So atleast about 40% of your GCD time is just spend channeling EB...

Where most other tanks dont have to waste as much time "building" a mechanic.

This is what makes IB/BG ultimately fail in comparison, especially with short TTK in RVR you dont have any time to "build" things like this.

So the best solution as I see it, would likely be to change the way you build the mechanic overall. There are many ideas you can use... But in the end, you need the ability to use your scalers and spenders within a few short GCDs of combat... The mechanic should be more "akin" to stances. Start with 0, 2 GCDs into the fight have 50-75 mechanic, and can use "scalers" between 25-75 mechanic to ALSO use as "builders" which you would then use some spenders, etc.

So likely something LIKE: "gain 25 mechanic" each "builder". Maybe removing the OF/DP mechanic building, and then adjusting the tiers of "scalers" to:
0: 50% effectiveness
25: 75% effectiveness
50+: Max effectiveness

Something akin to this.

Anyways, I dont know if this is what you intended to get into, but its the ultimate "core" problem of the class and the BG.... spending too much time "building" in combat, which restricts the class too much, and even if the class was more group-centric with its buffs/debuffs it still would fall short due to the wonky mechanic build up.

This is IMO

I disagree. From a lore perspective, i love the idea that you get more powerful has the heat of the battle rages. What i was pointing is that without a tactic, you somtimes cannot use the mechanic at all. Which makes the mechanic need a tactic to be reliable. Which restrict variety.

But in some ways people equate this to one-shot ability and god mode gamechanging buff to the class...

[ToXoS]

BG has more debuffs and IB more buffs, I have no idea why IB should not have the same mechanic point gain than BG one.

Albeit both classes have similarities they are designed differently, hence the need to slot a tactic to get the same benefit on mechanic gain. BG on the other side has to spend tactic slots on stuff, where an IB needs no tactic.

I see.
So if IB get the same mechanic points gain than BG, it will have an advantage over the BG because it would be able to slot another good tactic instead of the grudges gain ones.
If it doesn't, IB would still be able to slot one of the grudge gain tactic and have more mechanic gain rate than BG.

[GodlessCrom]

Bg gets tons of stuff i wish I had on my IB. You could play that game with literally every class IMO. I don't think adding 5 grudge on hit as baseline will suddenly break the class.

[Eathisword]

I see.
If it doesn't, IB would still be able to slot one of the grudge gain tactic and have more mechanic gain rate than BG.

That should obviously not be possible. If a change happens the grudge tactic has to be removed.

[Penril]

Chosen/KotBS needs to spend a tactic to get a superpunt, something that IB gets for free. Sure, BG's punt is longer but IB only needs 25 grudge, while BG requires 90 hatred for it to be better than IB's. Same with Shield of reprisal (3 seconds KD) and Spiteful Slam (2 seconds, needs 60 Hatred to be better than IB's). Not to mention the old Cave-win, while 2H BGs didn't have a KD (i still think they shouldn't have one in RoR). I mentioned Cave-win because we have to think of how these classes were designed at launch. Sometimes devs change something but forget to change other related skills, and it usually doesn't end up well.

There are several other examples. You guys need to look at all the tanks and compare everything they have. I made a chart a long time ago (back when 25 was level cap, or was it 26?). I haven't updated it since but maybe it can give you an idea. I'm sure I missed something, like the Chosen disorient aura for example. Also, I wasn't sure if I had to include CD increasers as CC.

Spoiler:

Also, from all those CC skills up there, IB can have all of his in one spec. He is also uncleansable by Doks (making group cleanse irrelevant to them). And i haven't even mentioned non-CC related skills. So yeah, maybe Rising Anger is justified.

[Grock]

Which leads me to this : would it be possible to mirror IB grudge generation to BG (i.e. You always gain grudge when you hit your enemy without the need to use a tactic). As to some extend, needing to use a tactic to use our mechanic properly, well, it is not fun and pretty much limit the crap out of the different tactic combo we can run.

I have been playing my T1 IB recently and noticed that start of Grudge decay seemingly based on how long ago you got any extra grudge, so even if you are in combat you can lose grudge just because nobody hits you/oathmate

If thats the case, do you guys think making Grudge only decay when out of combat fix help with these problems?