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TheoryCraft [Tanks Balance]

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Luth
Posts: 2840

Re: TheoryCraft [Tanks Balance]

Post#21 » Thu May 28, 2015 8:47 am

murmelon wrote: - strenght debuff
- Dot 9 sec (It was BG's burst)
I think you mean Crush the weak
The strength debuff was removed and instead the tresholds were lowered + an additional treshold at 100 hate. Also the ability was doing only dot damage without a direct damage component. They just removed the dot and let the ability do direct damage.

Also dot =/= burst:
-------------------------
Damage over Time, generally abbreviated as DoT and or simply dot, refers to inflicting some damage on one's foe which will be applied at a regular interval for a limited duration.
Burst damage is a term used to describe dealing high amounts of damage in a very short period of time.
-------------------------
("official" definitions taken from WoW wikki)

Imo the only tanks in WAR capable to deliver something that could be called burst, are:
- a very squishi "Ether dance" swordmaster
- a very squishi black orc
murmelon wrote: - Dot 5 sec
- morale debuff
I think you mean Horrific wound
This ability is now the armor debuff, so i don't understand the complaining.
murmelon wrote: - uniq disorient (+1 sec to build time)
Brutal smash
This is now the willpower/strength increase for the bg and the protected friendly target.

When there are some new abilities introduced, others have to be removed.

http://warhammeronline.wikia.com/wiki/G ... nd_Careers

Iirc this patch was widely appreciated by the blackguard players.

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murmelon
Posts: 43

Re: TheoryCraft [Tanks Balance]

Post#22 » Thu May 28, 2015 10:58 am

No complaints! Just balance:
at that time only blackguard had not debuff for his type of damage or compensating the lack thereof, was not. Devs gave it.
Unbalance
for IB, from three knockdowns took off only one (instead 2 for balance, or give it to another fraction).

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noisestorm
Posts: 1727

Re: TheoryCraft [Tanks Balance]

Post#23 » Thu May 28, 2015 11:52 am

Im not bothering with reading all in-between posts now, but OP obviously made some grave mistakes in terms of 'balancing'

anyways im going to drop off a few minor things:
Kotbs:
1) Shatter confidence should be a melee Skill. And then if you use the associated tactic, it should turn into ranged and only remove 2 enchants max.
2) Runefang and tactic locations -> Runefang should NOT be a basic tactic. It should be the highest Tactic (#11) in the Conquest path. "Slice Through" should be switched to be a basic Tactic, while moving the "Efficient Swings" to the slot where Slice Through was. In other words -> Runefang 11Pts tac, Slice Through basic tac, Efficient Swings 3Pts tac.

I was also thinking about the 2 Crit tactics but then again i remembered about WE morale3 :o

Chosen:
1) M4 Sprout Carapace should be lowered to either 15 or 10 seconds. Literally every other Tank M4 with buffs lasts only 10 seconds! Problem here is the pretty op morale-buff-tactic combined with this M4. Since i think the tactic is something special and good by itself, the Morale that profits heavily from it should be nerfed though.
2) Suppression perhaps should be changed to work similar like the Kotbs block increase. So a 10 second cd for 10 sec 10% block, or 15% parry.

Black Guard + Ironbreaker:
Personally i am totally fine with these ones tbh.

And for BO+SM i guess Aza has his own plans :D

Personally i would tweak some numbers on the Buff durations though. Eagle's Flight for example would fit way better if it was 15% Parry for 10 seconds, instead of 25% for 5 seconds. Same for Protection of Hoeth + Rock 'Ard with 5 -> 10 seconds, while giving it 10 more AP cost. Imo it also would give some more variety if Crashing Wave was a 8-10 second unstoppable buff on 30 second CD instead of a 4 sec buff on 20 seconds cooldown (same obviously for the BO counterpart 'Not in da face'). What i also would do, is lowering pretty much all buff duration from a BOs 20 seconds to 15 seconds, since he has no cooldown on most spells at all.

Edit: Small edit for Chosen.

Edit #2:

I was just talking about Auras and i personally would also like to see a Poll about having all 5point Auras from Kotbs/Chosen removed and replaced with skills associated to the former effect of the Spell.
For example the AP-Auras should become a 10 second buff, that gives all groupmembers in 100feet a 5ap/sec buff.
Or the setback Aura should give your target a 10sec debuff for 25% increased setback chance, while reducing it for your secondary target. Also the healdebuff ability should then look like the tactic-slotted BG/Ib healdebuff. It would just be a 25% debuff, instead of a 50% one that the other 2 Tanks have, but it would not require a tactic.
This would move Kotbs/Chosens from their Aura-Bot position, to a bit more lively skill oriented, class while still maintaining the 'flair' of the Classes.
Last edited by noisestorm on Thu May 28, 2015 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: TheoryCraft [Tanks Balance]

Post#24 » Thu May 28, 2015 12:03 pm

noisestorm wrote:2) Runefang and tactic locations -> Runefang should NOT be a basic tactic.
To add insult to injury, Runefang is actually the first career tactic they get (at level 15), so we'll be seeing it very soon :/

Swapping the position of tactics and abilities within a tree (and indeed, swapping tactics between classes, races or archetypes) is simple to do and the client will display it correctly.

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Ototo
Posts: 1012

Re: TheoryCraft [Tanks Balance]

Post#25 » Thu May 28, 2015 12:34 pm

Trouble is that people allways exploit when possible. Runefang is designed for tanks that stack defenses, but instead just stack parry, use ur strght aura, again designed to solve tanks just stacking defenses, and strght and u have a brutal DPS tank. It was a common tactic caue was pure cheese. Really needs a balance for sure, but same goes for KoBS/Chosen auras. They are too powerfull. Need a balance. Most likely leaving them in 2/3 of their actual power could be a big diff and no longer the class has a so prominent place in premade. Think it properly and no premade setup, not even for pure fun, lacked one. It was either having one or being roflstomped by parties having one.

waronlinebuilder.org - Knight of the Blazing Sun trees/skills

From all the changes being discussed, the only i see necessary is the one i told. Really, Nature's Blade was a horrible blade encha, and nobody used them cuase it was completely random. Making it steal resistences will make the SM again a decent tank. Probably instead of stealing random, that could benefit the tank current debuff to spirit, make it steal elemental/corporeal, either a decent number of both or a good one of one. Maybe even steal armour. Anything but steal random stats.


EDIT:
Azarael wrote:
noisestorm wrote:2) Runefang and tactic locations -> Runefang should NOT be a basic tactic.
To add insult to injury, Runefang is actually the first career tactic they get (at level 15), so we'll be seeing it very soon :/

Swapping the position of tactics and abilities within a tree (and indeed, swapping tactics between classes, races or archetypes) is simple to do and the client will display it correctly.
Change it for "Dirty Tricks" (highlighted HERE), so the tactic will be placed in the tree that its supposed to actually help, Vigilance.
Last edited by Ototo on Thu May 28, 2015 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: TheoryCraft [Tanks Balance]

Post#26 » Thu May 28, 2015 12:39 pm

Another way to improve N'B in particular would be to allow the client to select a preferential order in which the enchantment will steal stats.

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Ototo
Posts: 1012

Re: TheoryCraft [Tanks Balance]

Post#27 » Thu May 28, 2015 12:43 pm

Azarael wrote:Another way to improve N'B in particular would be to allow the client to select a preferential order in which the enchantment will steal stats.
I love how this sounds like!!! :) :)

Plz, Toughness 1st, then Intel/Strght, then Willp/Bal. Just dont add the Initiative to the list, cause with the amount of procs on critical and procs to critical that the class currently has, would be crazy-DPS.
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noisestorm
Posts: 1727

Re: TheoryCraft [Tanks Balance]

Post#28 » Thu May 28, 2015 12:44 pm

If you compare the numbers of auras to the Buff Debuff values of a Black Ork, then you'll see that they actually arent in any need of being reduced by a third. Sure they are AoE, but if you lower them even more, every other Tank can 'outbuff' those Auras, which makes them a complete lackluster then. Also BO has a 200+ corporal resi debuff already, while Kotbs auras have half of this value! Same for the (also AoE) Resi debuff of the SM. Also BO can debuff armor similar to the resis, so i absolutely dont see your point here.

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Ototo
Posts: 1012

Re: TheoryCraft [Tanks Balance]

Post#29 » Thu May 28, 2015 12:54 pm

noisestorm wrote:If you compare the numbers of auras to the Buff Debuff values of a Black Ork, then you'll see that they actually arent in any need of being reduced by a third. Sure they are AoE, but if you lower them even more, every other Tank can 'outbuff' those Auras, which makes them a complete lackluster then. Also BO has a 200+ corporal resi debuff already, while Kotbs auras have half of this value! Same for the (also AoE) Resi debuff of the SM. Also BO can debuff armor similar to the resis, so i absolutely dont see your point here.
Its obvious: The skill (AURA, whichever of them that debuff) is permanent, dont need to be landed in the target due to hitting it (shields would avoid on-hit skills), and also has 0 AP cost..... and for that advantages it debuff the same that other tanks. It should debuff less or has drawbacks.
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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: TheoryCraft [Tanks Balance]

Post#30 » Thu May 28, 2015 12:57 pm

Nerf them and make them stack in the Career Mechanics group.

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