Changelog 15/11/16

[roadkillrobin]

Yes, DoK in particular has lingering problems - the most obvious one is the M2 group cleanse on both mDoK and backline DoK, and we're going to hit that as well. DoKs should deal with that now - SL, Order crit stacking and standard group cleanses were nerfed, this M2 causes too many problems to be left untouched and there is now no longer any reason for you to have a reset button on M2.

Warrior Priest have a collection of usefull tactics for Melee healing, that DoK don't. Exalted Defence + Sheild of Faith and having 50% disrupt rate when a majority of ranged classes on Destro are casters are really really good and also benefit the class when backline healing in ORVR. If you decide to remove the DoK m2 for something like Divine Replacement, I highly sugest you mirror Exalted Defene on Transfer Focus and Sheild of Faith on Bound by Blood aswell

[braendir]

So let me get this straight. You refused to unequip your book or chalice, crushed some PUGs with your premade and you are coming back here to use that as an argument against the changes?

And people wonder why I disregard the opinions of people who only play heal DoK/WP.

well it's pretty easy to understand but i will explain

first keep in your mind i have not only my wp but also low lvled healer and i played with them and overpored wp "new stance" with lvl 32 healer

secondly you can play with one healer in "new stance" and another in "old stance" and make an idea about the all change

third when you compare two things you need change only one paramter per time notice the change and test another parameter and increment like that until you have all tested the last will be everybody in "new stance"
but before reach this step you need some time

so yes we can test new changes with the old stance

that was pretty easy to understand but not for everybody as i see

and people wonder why i disregard the opinions of peolpe with fallacious logic


thats work also for your post torquemadra

[Azarael]

well it's pretty easy to understand but i will explain

first keep in your mind i have not only my wp but also low lvled healer and i played with them and overpored wp "new stance" with lvl 32 healer

secondly you can play with one healer in "new stance" and another in "old stance" and make an idea about the all change

third when you compare two things you need change only one paramter per time notice the change and test another parameter and increment like that until you have all tested the last will be everybody in "new stance"
but before reach this step you need some time

so yes we can test new changes with the old stance

that was pretty easy to understand but not for everybody as i see

and people wonder why i disregard the opinions of peolpe with fallacious logic


thats work also for your post torquemadra

All I'm seeing from this is exactly why having the original and .ex modes run concurrently was a bad idea.

The .ex mode will run as the only mode for a certain period, and then we'll get some better feedback.

Warrior Priest have a collection of usefull tactics for Melee healing, that DoK don't. Exalted Defence + Sheild of Faith and having 50% disrupt rate when a majority of ranged classes on Destro are casters are really really good and also benefit the class when backline healing in ORVR. If you decide to remove the DoK m2 for something like Divine Replacement, I highly sugest you mirror Exalted Defene on Transfer Focus and Sheild of Faith on Bound by Blood aswell

We don't intend to remove it (rather to change its targeting), and yes, WP has some better tactics - but none of them justify K'W remaining as powerful as it is. K'W is having a serious effect on the meta right now, and bear in mind that .ex DoK now has an additional advantage over WP in that it can use Devour Essence to sustain Willpower stacks from range.

[braendir]

All I'm seeing from this is exactly why having the original and .ex modes run concurrently was a bad idea.

The .ex mode will run as the only mode for a certain period, and then we'll get some better feedback.

amen to that but give us some time before it's too early atm

[Strykhe]

I have just one question..

Sorry, but, have you taken into account than change balancing now, while we dont have really stuff, isn't really important ?
Game was equilibrate for RR 60+ stuff, and i ask me on this change, now.

We need equilibrage, but what now ?



Otherwise, the melee DoK is just more resistant with this mod. More than a Tank.. Isn't really useful.. Their more important attack/heal, unstoppable ? Really :/
On the other hand nerf armor, maybe change issu of more fight. It's to early for talk about this point. All DoK and WP play at 2hand, on melee.. Dont push players to a single specialization.

Maybe more gradual changes, for find a solution betwen the actually balancing, and your desire for change ?
All WP player that i know talk to reroll, if this change are confirmed. Really, rework your choice for find a good compromise ?
Isn't necessary to totaly kill actually specialization for increase a less play.


The only heal player need maybe a heal role on this game. With this class. All Dok / WP melee it's dangerous for the raid game.. Change premade 6v6, yes, but raid at 24 against zerg became dangerous for fun. Only fast wipe isnt really fun Wipe after a good fight is fun, on this game. That's was love it.

Compromise, pls !


Thx for your time.

[footpatrol2]

Hopefully you guys gain access to changing the tooltips. Because all this change is fairly dramatic and is going to become confusing as hell for players to keep up with these changes. Remeber most players don't frequent the forums everyday.

[Azarael]

I have just one question..

Sorry, but, have you taken into account than change balancing now, while we dont have really stuff, isn't really important ?
Game was equilibrate for RR 60+ stuff, and i ask me on this change, now.

We need equilibrage, but what now ?

If you read the balance forum, you would know that we commit to balancing now and then preventing later gear from changing the state of the game.

Otherwise, the melee DoK is just more resistant with this mod. More than a Tank.. Isn't really useful.. Their more important attack/heal, unstoppable ? Really :/

I'm ignoring this just like you ignored all the explanation and rationale. Sorry, but you don't get to come in and ignore the entire discussion and then expect me to repeat myself. Go back and read it.

On the other hand nerf armor, maybe change issu of more fight. It's to early for talk about this point. All DoK and WP play at 2hand, on melee.. Dont push players to a single specialization.

Second failure to read the thread (Go back. Read it, specifically the posts by CecilHarvey and Ade about how you can still backline with the classes.)

Maybe more gradual changes, for find a solution betwen the actually balancing, and your desire for change ?
All WP player that i know talk to reroll, if this change are confirmed. Really, rework your choice for find a good compromise ?
Isn't necessary to totaly kill actually specialization for increase a less play.

This breaking news just in:

- Players who selected an overpowered class with a very low skillcap and play that class and only that class devastated by possibility of nerf and skill increase - rampage on forum demanding rethink

You really think I'm going to back down because some of the people who main WP and DoK have delusions regarding their own skill level, the skillcap of the class and its power and mandatory status relative to other heals? They are a melee class. WARRIOR Priest. Disciple of KHAINE. Why some backliners think they get to force a melee class into a backline healing role where half its skills are ignored, I have no idea. Runepriest and Zealot are over there. If you want to play pure backline, absolute, pure backline, then yes, by all means, please reroll, because RP and Zealot will ALWAYS be a backline class. Otherwise, get used to the idea that you might have to hit something 20% of the time.

The only heal player need maybe a heal role on this game. With this class. All Dok / WP melee it's dangerous for the raid game.. Change premade 6v6, yes, but raid at 24 against zerg became dangerous for fun. Only fast wipe isnt really fun Wipe after a good fight is fun, on this game. That's was love it.

Compromise, pls !

I don't have to compromise for the sake of compromise to stop people being salty, I have to listen to feedback about actual flaws with the new class design that are demonstrated from testing. As happens every time, the players who have pointed them out are being listened to, and the people who are complaining based on what they think will be the case rather than what is the case are being ignored. The sooner people understand that pressure only works if I have actually made a serious, demonstrable mistake, the better.

[catholicism198]

I can't possibly be the only one that agrees with these changes.
One of the reasons I re-rolled was to get a better handle of the career, (the other being a name change,) and now it actually plays like it was actually intended.
Read the career's description:

Spoiler:

and now the Zealot's:

Spoiler:

(Yeah I'm biased- and what?)

With regards to the nerf:
Backline healers weren't 'nerfed,' only their armor- this actually brings them in line with the other ranged healers like the Shaman and Zealot and removes "god-mode." ...before I could successfully defend a battle objective on my own while several people pummeling me- the same could not be said about the others.

With regards to the healing debuff:
It essentially comes down to risk vs. reward. If there's no reward (resistance/immunity to healing debuffs,) why risk (easy target for range/melee) going to the front-lines?

You also have to remember that Disciples and Warriors do not have a viable gap closer (sprint removes all action points and career mechanic points)- so if they don't have anything to pummel (kiting) then they won't be able to heal themselves or their allies, and if they switch to ranged heals then your precious healing debuffs will go into full effect.

These changes add a (whole) new dimension to these careers.
While playing in scenarios I would melee heal most of the time, with some ranged from time to time- It's different and takes some adjusting- they also require you to get creative....If the enemy was retreating- I'd switch my focus from enemy players to an Engineer's turret or a White Lion's pet.

On average I'd heal for 49k vs a ranged healer's 58k, but the gap was mostly due to me running out of Soul Essence, which should be remedied once I have access to Transfer Essence.

[Strykhe]

Humm..

My english is really so bad.. Well, no problem. My ideas isn't so understanding.

I just try to tell you than you need to take into acount, the reality of game as much than theory craft and formule. No just one, or another. It's my thought, on my previous post. Read formule and play with 99% gamers who just dont care of this point, is really different. (And isnt noob, just they doesnt play with same objectives of another..)

Melee DoK and melee WP are really good on this spe, with big stuff, on live. Hence my first question. Thank's for answer.
I dont understand, but it's your choice, and i respect that.
And i doesnt critical your work, equilibrate is a good thing, but, i just find the "now, you play like that" so.. brutal. We need choices, it's a only idea than i want to partage with you. A minority of player need changement, so, you change radicaly for all player, than my "compromise".

Short, isnt a problem for me. Thank you for the answer.

[dur3al]

After whole day playing order in a semi-group on my WL I've seen that dps doks are much stronger now than before (not talking about melee healer, but about straight melee doks), they're seriously being helped a lot by an undefendable attack. A dps dok in a group (with guard and healers) are hands down, much better then any mdps out there (read my previous post regarding melee dps being replaced by melee healers). And that's why I posted without even testing it - since dps doks before the changes were already in a very good spot damage & survival wise, their main weakness was being CC'd (permanently snared).

Problem is the general lack of counter play. You can tell me timely cc's will get you an easy kill on a dps dok, but this works for everybody else... so its not an argument at all. The way we found to deal with guarded dps doks was to ignore them completely and kill pugs/backliners faster then they could kill ours and afterwards go for them.
The problem with this strategy, is that it is possible to pull of in a decent group in a small scale fight (6v6 for example), but ridiculously hard to pull off in a 12v12 and any other instance of the game, because of the RNG effect of pugs/pets/etc flying around (also reference to my previous post regarding thinking in all game-modes).

I don't think the new changes in order to counter the undefendable skill will work at all, simply because if you're trying to kill a dps dok why would you detaunt to affect his healing ability? You try kill the healer by not hitting him? Makes no sense. Let alone pop defensive morals to negate his melee heals lol.

In my opinion:
The skill should be affected by healing debuff - why it shouldn't? There is absolute no reason that I can see.
The skill shouldn't be undefendable, perhaps have a high success rate, but not 100% - ever. Promotes lack of counter-play.
Devour Essence and Transfer Essence shouldn't have 100ft+, they should have their range seriously nerfed. If the whole plan is to make DoKs and WPs melee healers, then why are they being able to use their melee heals for the entire party around him in 100ft? Including back-liners? This will introduce counter-play, for example, the dok will still remain able to heal himself (since its only range nerfed) but then we will be able to switch focus to somebody else in the group knowing he won't get getting heals by the dps dok randomly hitting anything from 100 feet range - so the dps dok have to run back to his group in order to pump his heals - creates situational awareness and counter play, because right now dps doks with guard and backline healers will simply laugh in your face while you try to kill them, so the only option is going for another target, leaving them fully well to keep pushing your group farther and farther away, this way you're able to force him into a decision, either go back to help his back-liner or keep pushing forward for targets.

I think you guys are into something regarding the melee healer changes (without truly testing them, but concept seems interesting), but then you must also change the full dps spec they have - especially doks since they were always viable/good before anyway - and with these changes they are just much better now with the improved healing.

My 2 cents from today.